Author Topic: Outdoor insect control  (Read 6092 times)

charby

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2014, 08:08:10 AM »
Silent Spring is a "what if" book, not what really happened. If did activate enough people to collectively fight against synthetic pesticides and other damaging effects of man on the environment. 

No different than Atlas Shrugged. The books seems to spur emotions out of people also.

Problem with many synthetic pesticides and chemicals is that bioaccumulation happens and the end do affect human health.

What is bioaccumulation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioaccumulation

A good example of animals that bioaccumulate and directly affect humans is fish. Look at all the mercury warnings on fish consumption from various watersheds.

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roo_ster

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2014, 10:02:03 AM »
That is a lot easier to notice then them slowing making a superfund site next door.

Let's bring these back for the children!  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_U-238_Atomic_Energy_Laboratory

Aw HELL yes!

Got to play with a particle accelerator and radioactive sources in college.  Fun & neat stuff.  More & better familiarity with this sort of thing would help demystify it.

Thalidomide for anxious pregnant women!

Indeed, because prescriptive medicine is just like overuse of pesticides.  What are they teaching in college these days?



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roo_ster

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charby

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2014, 10:10:31 AM »
Indeed, because prescriptive medicine is just like overuse of pesticides.  What are they teaching in college these days?

Sometimes outlawing uses of certain chemicals are for public good. Maybe DDT <insert other toxins) will not hurt our generation but what about generations that are not born yet?
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Scout26

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« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 02:36:03 PM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

charby

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2014, 03:07:28 PM »
Many of them won't be born due to insect borne diseases:

http://twitchy.com/2014/05/27/are-you-kidding-me-todays-google-doodle-earns-a-hearty-screw-you-pic/


http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2012/09/05/rachel-carsons-deadly-fantasies/


Hey, Hey Rachel C.  How many kids did you kill today?

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/02/this-post-brought-to-you-by-the-green-movement.html

Possibly prevent one disease only to be poisoned by toxins, then end up with dead or sick offspring. Its a damned if you damned if you don't.

So what do you do when the DDT resistant insect start to show up?
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Bigjake

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2014, 04:52:10 PM »
What if the moron is your neighbor and pours gallons of it all over their yard?

Given that one has to keep up a license to spray agriculturally here,  I'm not that worried about it.

charby

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2014, 02:22:36 PM »
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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Scout26

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2014, 03:26:08 PM »
^^^ That's a cheap shot.  I also care about the people that have to live on it.

Possibly prevent one disease only to be poisoned by toxins, then end up with dead or sick offspring. Its a damned if you damned if you don't.

So what do you do when the DDT resistant insect start to show up?

1)  Not proven.  Apparently you missed this part in the Forbes article: 
Quote
No study has ever linked DDT environmental exposure to harm to human health.

2)  Even 'resistant' insects are repelled.  Again:
Quote
Another advantage of DDT is that even when mosquitoes become resistant to its killing effects, they are still repelled by it.  An occasional dusting of window- and door-frames is extremely effective at keeping mosquitoes out of homes, schools, hospitals, and other buildings. When used in this way, the exploitation of DDT’s repellency also exposes people to lower amounts of insecticide than occurs with the only comparably effective alternative, bed nets soaked in various other pesticides.  Moreover, limited DDT spraying does its work at a fraction of the cost.

3)  One final note that most people miss: 
Quote
A basic principle of toxicology is that the dose makes the poison, and with modern regimens both environmental and human exposures would be very low.


Emphasis mine.   I'm fine with limiting it to licensed pest control companies.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

charby

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2014, 03:31:26 PM »
2)  Even 'resistant' insects are repelled. 

Yea but for how long?

Its not the small dose that hurts, the repeat applications of small doses that builds up and starts to become toxic to organisms larger than insects.

Also larger animals that eat the exposed insects become exposed to DDT when gets stored in the fatty cells.

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charby

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2014, 04:00:15 PM »
1)  Not proven.  Apparently you missed this part in the Forbes article:

Eskenazi, Brenda; Chevrier, J; Rosas, LG; Anderson, HA; Bornman, MS; Bouwman, H; Chen, A; Cohn, BA; De Jager, C (May 4, 2009). "The Pine River Statement: Human Health Consequences of DDT Use". Environ. Health Perspect. 117 (9): 1359–1367. doi:10.1289/ehp.11748. PMC 2737010.

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/11748/
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charby

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2014, 04:49:48 PM »
If I remember right humans when I was young had a high enough residual DDT level to make us unsafe for human consumption according to FDA standards
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1012-ddt-finally-linked-to-human-health-problems.html


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2014, 05:14:15 PM »
Henry Miller gets a lot of funding from chemical companies.

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/10/23-9

And profs are grant whores who get a slice of the grant $$$. 

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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charby

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2014, 05:30:17 PM »
And profs are grant whores who get a slice of the grant $$$. 



There is a difference there. Hopefully your not jaded too much by the right wing press and bloggers to see it.

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Scout26

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2014, 05:35:25 PM »
Eskenazi, Brenda; Chevrier, J; Rosas, LG; Anderson, HA; Bornman, MS; Bouwman, H; Chen, A; Cohn, BA; De Jager, C (May 4, 2009). "The Pine River Statement: Human Health Consequences of DDT Use". Environ. Health Perspect. 117 (9): 1359–1367. doi:10.1289/ehp.11748. PMC 2737010.

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/11748/

Might want to actually read it:

Quote
The recent literature shows a growing body of evidence that exposure to DDT and its breakdown product DDE may be associated with adverse health outcomes such as breast cancer, diabetes, decreased semen quality, spontaneous abortion, and impaired neurodevelopment in children.

Notice the word "may", as opposed to "will"

Quote
Conclusions: Although we provide evidence to suggest that DDT and DDE may pose a risk to human health, we also highlight the lack of knowledge about human exposure and health effects in communities where DDT is currently being sprayed for malaria control.

Again, "may".
Quote
Most human studies reviewed by IARC in 1991 did not show an association between DDT exposure and cancer risk.

Which seems to be what their study of studies reveals.  but since they don't want to say that because everyone "knows" DDT is da ebil, we'll hedge our bets and hope no one wades into the weeds to actually read this.

They choose poorly.

Quote
Research on DDT/DDE exposure and cancer continued to yield mixed results after the publication of the IARC report.


Hmmm, "The evidence doesn't support our conclusions, but hey, we'll use weasel words instead."


Liver Cancer:
Quote
Blood levels of DDE were not associated with a higher risk.

DDE is the breakdown product of DDT.

How about Pancreatic Cancer:

Quote
In contrast, other studies have found no association between estimates of DDT exposure among workers (Cocco et al. 2005) or serum/ adipose tissue levels of p,p′-DDE and pancreatic cancer risk after adjustment for confounders (Hardell et al. 2007; Hoppin et al. 2000).

Breast Cancer !!!  Yeah, everyone hates breast cancer:
Quote
Although neither DDT nor DDE induced mammary tumors in laboratory animal cancer bioassays (IARC 1991),
and
Quote
However, most case–control studies recently published and reviewed have not supported an association (Brody et al. 2004; Gatto et al. 2007; Ibarluzea et al. 2004; Iwasaki et al. 2008; Lopez-Cervantes et al. 2004; Siddiqui et al. 2005; Snedeker 2001).

What about maybe other cancers?

Quote
Research has not supported an association of DDT or DDE and incidence of colorectal, lung, bladder, prostate, endometrial, and stomach cancers (Baris et al. 1998; Cocco et al. 2005; Hardell et al. 2004; Howsam et al. 2004; Purdue et al. 2007; Sturgeon et al. 1998; Weiderpass et al. 2000). Although no associations were found with serum DDT (Rothman et al. 1997), higher DDE levels in dust, adipose tissue, and plasma have been associated with non-Hodgkin lymphoma in case–control studies (Colt et al. 2005; Quintana et al. 2004; Spinelli et al. 2007). For other cancers, such as leukemia (Flodin et al. 1988; Purdue et al. 2007), and testicular cancer (Hardell et al. 2006; McGlynn et al. 2008), evidence remains equivocal.

Maybe not.

Diebeetus:
Quote
Collectively, these studies from the United States and Sweden suggest that body burdens of DDT and/or DDE may be associated with the prevalence of diabetes. A variety of other persistent environmental chemicals also have been associated with diabetes prevalence (Lee et al. 2006). However, given the high correlation among various organochlorine exposures (Bradman et al. 2007), additional research is needed to delineate the specific contributions of DDT and DDE.

Vaskidmark and Wilford Brimley, call your lawyer.

Infants and chilluns !!!
Quote
However, two analyses of the CHDS, which was conducted around the same time as the CPP, have found no associations of DDT/DDE and preterm delivery or small for gestational age, despite slightly higher median DDE levels than in the CPP

Quote
Thus, associations between DDE levels and early weaning may be spurious, and further research is warranted.

Quote
The authors concluded that breast-feeding in itself may exert a protective effect against contaminants in human milk.

Quote
but found no associations between maternal serum p,p′-DDE and the odds of cryptorchidism, or between p,p′-DDT and p,p′-DDE concentrations and odds of hypospadias

Quote
Overall, the evidence for the relation of maternal DDT exposure and child physical growth is weak.

 Fertility !!!

Quote
Overall, studies of highly exposed populations suggest that male fertility may be adversely affected by DDT exposure, but studies in populations with moderate to low exposure levels do not support a relationship between exposure and male fertility outcomes.

Quote
Overall, the few studies conducted to date suggest that DDT exposure may affect time to pregnancy, but more research is needed.

(I will note that some of the studies methodology is highly flawed.  e.g.  Using date of marriage to date of first pregnancy.)


I could go on, but


Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

roo_ster

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2014, 05:56:05 PM »
There is a difference there. Hopefully your not jaded too much by the right wing press and bloggers to see it.

Yes.  Miller is employable if chemical company monies go *poof* and is not sucking on the taxpayer teat.

Quote
Henry I. Miller, a physician, is the Robert Wesson Fellow of Scientific Philosophy and Public Policy at Stanford University’s Hoover institution; he was the founding director of the FDA’s Office of Biotechnology.

At the Texas state universities, profs get back ~10% of the grant monies in bonuses from the university for successful grant applications.  A tech writer buddy of mine in college wrote grant applications for a prof at our school.  He got pretty good at it and the prof made a very nice living. 

One of my physics profs was a piss-poor instructor, but he was kept on and made good money for self, dept, and school gunning for grants.

http://report.nih.gov/budget_and_spending/index.aspx
For 2013, the NIH average grant was roughly $469,511.38.  So, the average NIH grant is worth roughly $50k to a prof who makes a grant app that the NIH really likes.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

onions!

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2014, 06:03:59 PM »
If I remember right humans when I was young had a high enough residual DDT level to make us unsafe for human consumption according to FDA standards
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1012-ddt-finally-linked-to-human-health-problems.html


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That's good to know.When the S Hs'TF,only eat those under thirty.Or,if no other options exist,limit consumption to no more than,what,one Geritol chugger per month?
Thanks,Jeff. ;)
jeff w

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roo_ster

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2014, 06:05:05 PM »
Might want to actually read it:

Notice the word "may", as opposed to "will"

Again, "may".
Which seems to be what their study of studies reveals.  but since they don't want to say that because everyone "knows" DDT is da ebil, we'll hedge our bets and hope no one wades into the weeds to actually read this.

They choose poorly.
 

Hmmm, "The evidence doesn't support our conclusions, but hey, we'll use weasel words instead."


Liver Cancer:
DDE is the breakdown product of DDT.

How about Pancreatic Cancer:

Breast Cancer !!!  Yeah, everyone hates breast cancer:and
What about maybe other cancers?

Maybe not.

Diebeetus:
Vaskidmark and Wilford Brimley, call your lawyer.

Infants and chilluns !!!
 Fertility !!!

(I will note that some of the studies methodology is highly flawed.  e.g.  Using date of marriage to date of first pregnancy.)


I could go on, but




And the rubble bounced.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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charby

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Re: Outdoor insect control
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2014, 07:12:36 PM »
Might want to actually read it:

Notice the word "may", as opposed to "will"

Again, "may".
Which seems to be what their study of studies reveals.  but since they don't want to say that because everyone "knows" DDT is da ebil, we'll hedge our bets and hope no one wades into the weeds to actually read this.

They choose poorly.
 

Hmmm, "The evidence doesn't support our conclusions, but hey, we'll use weasel words instead."


Liver Cancer:
DDE is the breakdown product of DDT.

How about Pancreatic Cancer:

Breast Cancer !!!  Yeah, everyone hates breast cancer:and
What about maybe other cancers?

Maybe not.

Diebeetus:
Vaskidmark and Wilford Brimley, call your lawyer.

Infants and chilluns !!!
 Fertility !!!

(I will note that some of the studies methodology is highly flawed.  e.g.  Using date of marriage to date of first pregnancy.)


I could go on, but




I did read it, most scientific papers on carcinogens usually say may.
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