Author Topic: Awesome Nevada marijuana initiative looking good in the polls!  (Read 13772 times)

lupinus

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« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2006, 08:46:51 AM »
it should be legal and I for one hope it passes.

Do I want to get stoned?  Hell no the one and only time I did I hated it and haven't even looked at the stuff since.

But then I don't like smoking, think its stupid and a waste of money.  Doesn't mean I want to outlaw it.  

Alcohol is ok in measured ammounts, don't like being so drunk I would fall on my face when getting up from the bar seat.  But you know what....yeah should be legal.

Do kids get cigs and alcohol now?  Sure they do its laughable to think they don't or can't.  But I assure you that unless it is from mommy and daddys unlocked liqor cabinate it is ten times easier for a kid to score drugs then it is for him to score cigs or booze.

Regulating it makes legitamet buisnesses sell it because they can, and makes them follow the law to do so because they don't want their license pulled.  

Well it ever be totaly regulated?  Course not you will always have illegal trafficing just liek you still have illegal trafficing of booze and cigs.  Why don't you ever hear about it?  Because it is mostly in small enough amounts to make a few quick bucks not build a cartel out of.

Any drug which does not have a good possibility of making someone go crazy or has shown time and agian to ruin communities, drugs like pcp and meth, should be legalized.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2006, 10:10:49 AM »
Quote from: wingnutx
Quote from: Firethorn
tests showing mj smokers being safer drivers while high.
I don't buy that for a second.
I dont buy it either, but one can find a "scientific" study to say just about anything. Maybe proffessional drivers on a closed course and one hit out of the old bong will turn 1 seconds faster time in a single lap, of course that doesnt have anything to do with actually driving on the street while stoned, but I await the source of the study with eager anticipation.

wingnutx

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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2006, 10:12:32 AM »
Quote from: Sindawe
In essence stoned drivers tend to drive like paranoid old women. Cheesy
They shouldn't drive either.

Firethorn

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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2006, 12:47:07 PM »
Quote from: wingnutx
Quote from: Sindawe
In essence stoned drivers tend to drive like paranoid old women. Cheesy
They shouldn't drive either.
Sindawe, that's what I was remembering.  I'll try to find a link, but I'm at work right now and such a search is likely to hit a lot of pro-MJ sites.  So I'll wait until I get home.

While stoned, the drivers tended to show a lack of aggression(if the other guy really wants to go, let him), drive the speed limit or even a bit lower, etc...

I'd agree with you Sindawe.  It doesn't matter what your impairment is, if you can't meet the standards then you shouldn't be on the road.

On the other hand, I'd love to see a PRT type system going in so people DON'T have to drive to get to most places.  The fact that it'd lower petroleum product usage is a side benefit...

Third_Rail

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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2006, 02:41:10 PM »
For those that haven't seen the site, NORML is the place to go if you want to keep up to date on MJ laws, reform, etc. I think a few of you would be very surprised with how many states have decriminalized small amounts of MJ.

lupinus

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« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2006, 07:31:00 PM »
Quote
They shouldn't drive either.
No they shouldn't.  I wish I had a nickle for everytime an elderly person who shouldn't still be behind the wheel either causes an accident or is going down the road 20 mph bellow the speed limit.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

publius

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« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2006, 10:32:08 PM »
Quote from: m1911owner
OK... This is different from what's already been litigated in Raich v. Ashcroft how, exactly?
In that case, the left wing of the Court, joined by Scalia, held that growing your own cannabis (or building your own machine gun) affects interstate commerce, though the activities themselves are not commerce.

This is different because they are actually talking about buying and selling. In other words, it has even less chance of getting past the feds and the New Deal interpretation of the Constitution which is so popular with drug warriors and gun grabbers.

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The Rabbi

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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2006, 02:38:51 AM »
Quote from: lupinus
Quote
They shouldn't drive either.
No they shouldn't.  I wish I had a nickle for everytime an elderly person who shouldn't still be behind the wheel either causes an accident or is going down the road 20 mph bellow the speed limit.
I never understood this reasoning.  It goes:
Yeah, X is bad but Y is also bad.  Therefore we should tolerate X since we're stuck with Y.
So elderly people behind the wheel are a problem.  Drunks behind the wheel are a problem.  So we're going to make these problems better by doing things that will inevitably result in yet another class of impaired drivers behind the wheel?  Hello?  I don't really care what the relative differences of drunk vs stoned drivers are.  Stoned drivers are a threat to others.  This measure will increase the number of stoned drivers.
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lupinus

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« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2006, 06:12:43 AM »
You think there isn't already stoned drivers behind the wheel?

Just like there will always be those who commit crimes with guns, there will always be those who get behind the wheel when they have no buisness being there.  All this is doing is removing a law which shouldn't have been a law in the first place.

Blaming impared drivers on weed, alcohol, or anything else is no different then blaming guns for crimes.  If someone wants to get wasted they will, weed isn't exactly hard to find, and if they can't at the moment they can get wasted on plenty of other things.  People are already using it, its a stupid law, and you aren't going to have more people behind the wheel impaired then you are now.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2006, 07:47:44 AM »
Quote from: lupinus
You think there isn't already stoned drivers behind the wheel?

Just like there will always be those who commit crimes with guns, there will always be those who get behind the wheel when they have no buisness being there.  All this is doing is removing a law which shouldn't have been a law in the first place.

Blaming impared drivers on weed, alcohol, or anything else is no different then blaming guns for crimes.  If someone wants to get wasted they will, weed isn't exactly hard to find, and if they can't at the moment they can get wasted on plenty of other things.  People are already using it, its a stupid law, and you aren't going to have more people behind the wheel impaired then you are now.
So your solution is to exacerbate the problem?
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Third_Rail

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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2006, 08:20:22 AM »
The point of legalizing all substances currently illegal isn't to cut down on crime, isn't to make driving safer for you, but to actually allow personal choice; with this must come responsibility for one's actions. Tougher laws on people who actually break the law by driving high, drunk, tired, distracted, those make sense.

But tougher laws on people who might break the law? If you're male you might be a rapist and if you're female you might be a prostitute.

wingnutx

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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2006, 08:43:10 AM »
My solution is to punish people for dangerous negligence, not people who may theoretically become negligent in the future.

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« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2006, 11:35:53 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: lupinus
Quote
They shouldn't drive either.
No they shouldn't.  I wish I had a nickle for everytime an elderly person who shouldn't still be behind the wheel either causes an accident or is going down the road 20 mph bellow the speed limit.
I never understood this reasoning.  It goes:
Yeah, X is bad but Y is also bad.  Therefore we should tolerate X since we're stuck with Y.
So elderly people behind the wheel are a problem.  Drunks behind the wheel are a problem.  So we're going to make these problems better by doing things that will inevitably result in yet another class of impaired drivers behind the wheel?  Hello?  I don't really care what the relative differences of drunk vs stoned drivers are.  Stoned drivers are a threat to others.  This measure will increase the number of stoned drivers.
I don't really care what the number of knife murders vs gun murders are.  Gun owners are a threat to others.  Legalizing guns will increase the number of gun murders.

Quote
My solution is to punish people for dangerous negligence, not people who may theoretically become negligent in the future.
yes.

It really gets on my nerves the double standards I see on these forums when it comes to issues such as this.
"People can cause problems with drugs so it should be illegal!"
"Just because people can cause problems with guns doesn't mean we are too!  Don't make them illegal!"
It's one or the other...either you want personal freedom or you don't.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2006, 11:46:23 AM »
Quote from: mbs357
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: lupinus
No they shouldn't.  I wish I had a nickle for everytime an elderly person who shouldn't still be behind the wheel either causes an accident or is going down the road 20 mph bellow the speed limit.
I never understood this reasoning.  It goes:
Yeah, X is bad but Y is also bad.  Therefore we should tolerate X since we're stuck with Y.
So elderly people behind the wheel are a problem.  Drunks behind the wheel are a problem.  So we're going to make these problems better by doing things that will inevitably result in yet another class of impaired drivers behind the wheel?  Hello?  I don't really care what the relative differences of drunk vs stoned drivers are.  Stoned drivers are a threat to others.  This measure will increase the number of stoned drivers.
I don't really care what the number of knife murders vs gun murders are.  Gun owners are a threat to others.  Legalizing guns will increase the number of gun murders.
that isn't a logical statement of my position.  It isn't logical at all.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2006, 01:53:15 PM »
Quote from: mbs357
It really gets on my nerves the double standards I see on these forums when it comes to issues such as this.
"People can cause problems with drugs so it should be illegal!"
"Just because people can cause problems with guns doesn't mean we are too!  Don't make them illegal!"
It's one or the other...either you want personal freedom or you don't.
Drugs and guns are a very poor analogy.  Guns have a positive effect on society that drugs cannot match.  Take all guns away tomorrow, and the weak would be helpless against the strong.  Take all illegal drugs away tomorrow, and...what negative consequences might there be?
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Third_Rail

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« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2006, 02:56:32 PM »
Massive withdrawl symptoms from people you might not expect?

The Rabbi

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« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2006, 04:02:46 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: mbs357
It really gets on my nerves the double standards I see on these forums when it comes to issues such as this.
"People can cause problems with drugs so it should be illegal!"
"Just because people can cause problems with guns doesn't mean we are too!  Don't make them illegal!"
It's one or the other...either you want personal freedom or you don't.
Drugs and guns are a very poor analogy.  Guns have a positive effect on society that drugs cannot match.  Take all guns away tomorrow, and the weak would be helpless against the strong.  Take all illegal drugs away tomorrow, and...what negative consequences might there be?
Actually a logical parallel of what I see the pro side's view would be:

Convicted murderers already have knives so we should go ahead and make it easy for them to get guns too.
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« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2006, 04:11:15 PM »
There was an unscientific test performed by one of the car mags years ago. They started out with just one drag off a joint then drove a test course. They increased the amount of pot smoked and recorded the results.

The end result was smoking dope did not impair their physical ability to operate the vehicle safely. In higher dosages it did influence their judgement and their attention to objects in their peripheral vision.

While I don't recommend it I drove while being a pot head for years (many years ago). My personal expierience is it would have to be some killer sh*t to effect my ability to drive safely.

lupinus

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« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2006, 06:43:07 PM »
While drugs being illegal and banned wont have negative effects on socity like guns would, the same holds true for both of them.

Relax laws on guns someone might buy one and shoot someone who might not otherwise have been crafty enough to get one.  Relax drug laws and someone might get drugs and drive under the influence who might not have otherwise been able to get them.

It is about the freedom to choose what you do to your body.

Saying legalizing drugs will lead to more people driving under the influence is absoloutly no different then saying getting rid of all gun restrictions will raise crime because more people would have access to them.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

zahc

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« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2006, 08:03:22 PM »
Quote
what negative consequences might there be?
Irrelevant, since you can't take all the drugs away and magically un-addict everyone.
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Firethorn

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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2006, 01:59:23 AM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
Massive withdrawl symptoms from people you might not expect?
Don't forget that many of these drugs still have legitimate medical benefits.  MJ is an excellent Nausea suppressant and appetite stimulant.  Works well for some cancer patients, for example.  While not a true painkiller, it can also help some in extreme pain because it puts the user into a state where they just don't care as much.  Cocaine is still occasionally used as a painkiller by optometrists.  Opium is turned into Morphine and use as a painkiller.

Quote from: The Rabbi
Convicted murderers already have knives so we should go ahead and make it easy for them to get guns too.
Rabbi, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're showing a disconnect with most of the rest of us.

It appears to me that you associate drug users exclusivly with criminals.  We don't.  While the abusability of various drugs vary, MJ is our 'poster child' for a reason.  In most respects it's comparable to and even better than Alcohol and Tobacco.

I personally believe that legalization* would allow us to finally have a crime rate comparable to Europe.  Kids today rate illegal drugs as easier to get than the legal age-restricted two.  We'd be defunding various organized criminal institutions.  We saw it when prohibition ended, crime dropped like a rock.  The WoD has been the biggest infringement on our rights.

Believe it or not, legalization would actually give the government more control over these drugs.  Use market forces to drive the drug dealers out of business, keep the product as safe as possible, and use the tax money gained to run treatment centers and give most of the money used to fight the WoD back to the people or use it to clean up violent crime.

*I don't like this 'decriminalization' stuff.  If you still outlaw selling it, possessing more than an ounce, etc you're still going to have illegal dealers that you can't really regulate.

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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2006, 02:15:58 AM »
You know, if you thnk about it, if drugs were legalized, both the dealers AND the police would be out of a job. So where is the incentive for either side to legitimize all this?
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2006, 02:34:34 AM »
Quote from: 280plus
You know, if you thnk about it, if drugs were legalized, both the dealers AND the police would be out of a job. So where is the incentive for either side to legitimize all this?
Why would the dealers be out of a job?  If they could offer the stuff at a lower price and with more convenience they would still sell illegally.  If you tax the item and let businesses mark it up you create an automatic black market.

Quote from: firethorn
Rabbi, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're showing a disconnect with most of the rest of us.

It appears to me that you associate drug users exclusivly with criminals.  We don't.  While the abusability of various drugs vary, MJ is our 'poster child' for a reason.  In most respects it's comparable to and even better than Alcohol and Tobacco.
Actually I think you have the disconnect in not understanding my point.  Yes, MJ is the "poster child" for drug legalization just like the happy committed monogamous gay couple is the poster child for same sex marriage.  Supporters choose those things because no one would support legalization if the poster child were a pipe head or gay marriage if the poster child were some promiscuous chicken hawk.
And drug use is associated with criminals because people who buy, sell, and use illegal narcotics are breaking the law.  Same argument opponents of immigration use.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2006, 03:22:11 AM »
Quote from: zahc
Quote
what negative consequences might there be?
Irrelevant, since you can't take all the drugs away and magically un-addict everyone.
You missed the whole point.  While guns have a positive effect on society, drugs have, at best, no effect.  At best, giving all pro-legalization arguments the benefit of the doubt.  For that reason, guns should be encouraged and should be legal, but the arguments for gun rights don't transfer as well to "drug rights."
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