Author Topic: Awesome Nevada marijuana initiative looking good in the polls!  (Read 13769 times)

280plus

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Awesome Nevada marijuana initiative looking good in the polls!
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2006, 03:25:10 AM »
Rabbi, how many guys do you see selling bootleg liquor on the street corner? Organized crime would suffer greatly if suddenly drugs, prostitution and gambling were legal coast to coast. Don't worry, I'm sure they could find other means of support. But then gee, all of a sudden, we got all these cops sitting around with nothing to do. How about we concentrate this newly found mass of policehood and employ them on the remaining criminal activities? Like rape, murder, robbery and other violent crimes that actually involve victims.

Thw WOD is a total waste of good money and good manpower that could be MUCH better used elsewhere.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2006, 04:06:27 AM »
Quote from: 280plus
Rabbi, how many guys do you see selling bootleg liquor on the street corner? Organized crime would suffer greatly if suddenly drugs, prostitution and gambling were legal coast to coast. Don't worry, I'm sure they could find other means of support. But then gee, all of a sudden, we got all these cops sitting around with nothing to do. How about we concentrate this newly found mass of policehood and employ them on the remaining criminal activities? Like rape, murder, robbery and other violent crimes that actually involve victims.

Thw WOD is a total waste of good money and good manpower that could be MUCH better used elsewhere.
Actually in my part of the country there are plenty of bootleggers and moonshiners.  The reason you don't see more is that moonshine is a very poor substitute for what you buy in the liquor store (or c-store if you're in CA).  The liquor companies have spent a lot of money and time developing unique products and advertising them.  Ditto with the cigarette makers, even though to me one cigarette is pretty much like the next.  Marijuana and opium and cocaine otoh are all commodity products with very little differentiation and of course no brand loyalty.  As commodities they get sold by price and obviously the illegal price will be less than the legal price.
  Look at NYC and the illegal cigarette trade there.  Because of taxes, cigs in NY are about twice what they are in NC.  So people drive to NC, fill up vans with some maximum number of cartons (the max number is because below that it is a midemeanor and above that a felony, so people avoid the felony rap), drive to NY and sell them, often in the open in the subway.  The problem is so bad police don't even cite much less arrest illegal cigarette sellers. Why should marijuana behave any differently?
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Third_Rail

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« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2006, 06:10:30 AM »
Quote
Marijuana and opium and cocaine otoh are all commodity products with very little differentiation and of course no brand loyalty
I disagree. There is very much a brand loyalty; many people around here will pony up extra cash for Dr. Atomic's MJ, ditto Sagarmatha's. As to opium, cocaine, etc. - these have been processed (and actually opium is hard to find) to be pretty much the same. Cocaine on the east coast is the same, give or take, as cocaine on the west coast.

280plus

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« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2006, 09:36:02 AM »
But Rabbi, wouldn't you agree that there sure are a lot more illegal drug dealers than illegal bootleggers of alcohol and tobacco? I know I could get any illegal drug I wanted a lot easier and faster than I could bootlegged A or T. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for the stuff.

If NY's ciggie tax is more than the market wants to bear that's NY's fault.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2006, 09:38:48 AM »
Quote from: 280plus
But Rabbi, wouldn't you agree that there sure are a lot more illegal drug dealers than illegal bootleggers of alcohol and tobacco? I know I could get any illegal drug I wanted a lot easier and faster than I could bootlegged A or T. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for the stuff.

If NY's ciggie tax is more than the market wants to bear that's NY's fault.
I'm not so sure about the illegal cigarette bootleggers. That's big business.  The alcohol is because it is easy enough to buy better quality stuff legally.  Moonshine is nasty.  
My point about NY is exactly that: if the legal channels price the stuff significantly higher than the illegal channels (which will be the case) then you will have every bit as much illegal activity as now.
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280plus

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« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2006, 09:45:55 AM »
Oh I agree 100% but I think if the stuff was produced legally right here then you would expect it would be cheap enough to bear a little taxation.
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Third_Rail

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« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2006, 09:47:37 AM »
Rabbi - agreed! That is reason why drugs should be legalized on a federal level, then taxation left up to each state. If someone wants to go to state A to buy MJ or whatnot to escape state B's tax (or perhaps state B has banned MJ), then that's fine. I simply dislike federal bans on just items.


As to "made right here".... well, most MJ I've heard of comes in from Canada or California, at least around here. It's the fact that most big illegal growing operations can bully smaller growers out of selling, the DEA does the same, etc., so that only the big nasty gangs are selling the stuff. That's where the problems are, just like during prohibition.

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« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2006, 10:48:20 AM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
Rabbi - agreed! That is reason why drugs should be legalized on a federal level, then taxation left up to each state. If someone wants to go to state A to buy MJ or whatnot to escape state B's tax (or perhaps state B has banned MJ), then that's fine. I simply dislike federal bans on just items.


As to "made right here".... well, most MJ I've heard of comes in from Canada or California, at least around here. It's the fact that most big illegal growing operations can bully smaller growers out of selling, the DEA does the same, etc., so that only the big nasty gangs are selling the stuff. That's where the problems are, just like during prohibition.
Actually I am told MJ is TN's second or third biggest cash crop.
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280plus

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« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2006, 11:23:48 AM »
Yea, now imagine the tax revenue they're missing on it...
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« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2006, 11:26:47 AM »
I believe it - most states have MJ as one of the top five cash crops. The reason for this is that it is worth so much more than it should be due to laws against openly growing/selling.

That aside, the biggest producers are California and Canada, at least for sellers that I've heard of.


EDIT: In 1998, a study was done about cash crops (seen at NORML's website). MJ was America's number four crop at wholesale value. If calculated at the inflated (due to legal issues) price, it's by far the number one crop in the country.

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« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2006, 10:10:08 AM »
MJ is a dangerous addictive drug & needs to be legal.
Illegal aliens are (right now) doing illegal farming
in OUR nat prks and forest spreading pollution
and shooting at people.
  an oz of weed is over 400 bucks a pack of smokes is at most 6 bucks...
 keeping it illegal is great for crime cartels.

 Prohibition gave us the Kennedy dynasty, & NFA... enough allready!
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« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2006, 10:41:38 AM »
Must be some good MJ at $400/oz. Half a kilo of decent skunk is $550 around here.

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« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2006, 11:01:53 AM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
Must be some good MJ at $400/oz. Half a kilo of decent skunk is $550 around here.
Do they give you a garbage bag to go with it?

Thats $4 for 1/8th ounch. Thats less than my parents paid in 1965. I paid $40 for that same quantity when i was in highschool in the early 90s.

Your price $1.5 per gram, the current rate in Washington state is $10+ per gram. (fun link = http://www.marijuanaprices.homestead.com/directory/index.html )

Do you live in Mexico?

Third_Rail

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« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2006, 07:21:03 PM »
Nope. Guess the people I talk to know the right people; also, as with many things, buying in bulk saves. No one I know saves up that much; they pay LOTS for smaller amounts.


As to where I live, New England of all places. You'd think things would be more here...

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« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2006, 01:58:21 PM »
Quote
Marijuana and opium and cocaine otoh are all commodity products with very little differentiation and of course no brand loyalty
Without ever having smoked the stuff, I can tell you unequivocably that at least in regard to marijuana this is completely false. There are many different varieties, and discriminating smokers know what they prefer and will seek it out and even pay a higher price for it. I suspect this also holds true for opium, though cocaine is so processed that any differentiation in the raw material is probably gone in the finished product.
D. R. ZINN

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« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2006, 03:43:09 PM »
Very true about opium, too, now that I think about it. Latex from Danish flag poppies, tazzies, and from "black knight" poppies are all highly prized.

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« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2006, 05:35:05 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: 280plus
But Rabbi, wouldn't you agree that there sure are a lot more illegal drug dealers than illegal bootleggers of alcohol and tobacco? I know I could get any illegal drug I wanted a lot easier and faster than I could bootlegged A or T. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for the stuff.

If NY's ciggie tax is more than the market wants to bear that's NY's fault.
I'm not so sure about the illegal cigarette bootleggers. That's big business.  The alcohol is because it is easy enough to buy better quality stuff legally.  Moonshine is nasty.  
My point about NY is exactly that: if the legal channels price the stuff significantly higher than the illegal channels (which will be the case) then you will have every bit as much illegal activity as now.
I'll note that the cigarettes are still the real thing, it's just that NY has increased prices on cigs to the point of 'confiscationary tax'.  In other discussions, I've stated a need to keep the tax down.

As for illegal being cheaper, I have to ask you, which ends up truly being cheaper and easier:

some guy loads up a backpack/car and attempts to sneak accross the border with it, then sell it on a streetcorner somewhere.

Or

A semi is loaded up with 20 tons of the stuff and driven, completely legally because it's been tested/approved and the reasonable tax paid, to the store where it's placed on the shelves(well, behind the counter).

The Rabbi

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« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2006, 04:56:09 PM »
What is the marginal cost of marijuana?
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« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2006, 07:25:33 PM »
So nobody thinks that if drugs are legalized crime will increase? Sure, the actual crime of posession and distro will be nil, but what about crimes the result from the sudden rise in drug usage. It would be like dropping the legal age of drinking down to 16. A sudden flood of people who normally would not have used, to start.
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« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2006, 07:33:57 PM »
Rabbi - I'll look into that and get back to you.

Finch - would you rather have people in jail for growing and ingesting a plant or for actual crimes like theft possibly resulting from use of drugs? How about the whole "War on (some) Drugs"? I'd take legalization over continued tyranny any day.

To make an analogy...
"What're you in for?"
"I robbed a convienence store and shot the clerk!"
"What about you?"
"Stole a car!"
"You?"
"I... grew a plant and got caught."


Of course, I also think that the age to purchase alcohol should be dropped to 18.

Firethorn

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« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2006, 02:48:05 AM »
Quote from: Finch
So nobody thinks that if drugs are legalized crime will increase? Sure, the actual crime of posession and distro will be nil, but what about crimes the result from the sudden rise in drug usage. It would be like dropping the legal age of drinking down to 16. A sudden flood of people who normally would not have used, to start.
I suggest you check out this page about prohibition

Findings:

1.  Prohibition didn't measurably drop the drinking rate of alcohol after the first couple years (1920-1933)

Pure alcohol consumed:


2.  They showed a marked tendency towards higher concentration versions of alcohol (IE liquer instead of beer)



3.  People substituted other, more dangerous drugs
4.  Deaths went up, both from alcohol poisonings and murder.
5.  Crime went up during prohibition, and came back down afterwards
Murder rate:


Now, think about this.  We're seeing the same trends with illegal drugs today as we did with prohibition.  Why should the ending of the prohibition on MJ, cocaine, etc have any different effects?

I mean, if they didn't see a huge rise in alcohol consumption when prohibition ended, why should we expect a rise in usage if other drugs are legalized?  You see, there is a whole crime industry fed by the prohibition.  Since what they're doing is illegal(though highly profitable), they can't depend upon police resources to protect them, the courts to enforce their contracts, etc...  So they react to defend themselves.  If they're the victim of a crime, they don't dare go to the police.  Territory(sales locations) have to be defended.  Think about this:  In many areas the majority of murders are drug related.  Note:  I'm including things like gang wars over territory.  The majority of theft crimes are drug related.  

They substitute Meth for cocaine(I don't think Meth would normally be a replacement for MJ), because Meth is easier to get/make than cocaine.  Just like there was a marked preference for hard liquers because liquer was easier to smuggle than beer.  So the cost of beer went up around three times as much as liquer.  A marked preference towards more compact, eaiser to smuggle forms of drugs dominates in a black market.  The downside of this is that more compact drugs are also easier to OD on, and when they adulturate the stuff back down they frequently use chemicals that are nastier than the drug.

Besides, if you drop the price of drugs down, it takes less money to support a habit.  Get them on a slower effect drug of constant strength and they're more likely to be able to hold a paying job.  Drop the price and you eventually drive the street dealers and producers out of business.  While illegal commercial alcohol production still occurs, but it's statistically insignificant.  Sure, some people homebrew, but that's like working on your own car or having a garden.  Some tobacco smuggling occurs, but it's mostly independent people driving to a different state, buying legal cigarettes, then bringing back across the state line.  Sure it's tax evasion, but the product itself is held to the same standards as the legal stuff.  It's like buying medicines from canada to avoid high prices.

Ultimately, a treatment center is cheaper than jail/prison.  Legalizing and taxing these drugs would drop the usage of the most unsafe versions, and the taxes could go towards helping the nonfunctional addicts and mitigating the harm abusers cause.  Organized crime would drop substantially, since their largest profit line would disappear.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2006, 02:52:52 AM »
As pointed out ad nauseam, comparing illegal drugs to alcohol is a bad comparison, for historical and social reasons.
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Third_Rail

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« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2006, 09:54:18 AM »
I don't agree. There is historical widespread use of opium containing products, and it was socially acceptable up until the early 1900s - just a bit later, alcohol was prohibited as well....

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« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2006, 11:07:21 AM »
Quote from: Third_Rail
I don't agree. There is historical widespread use of opium containing products, and it was socially acceptable up until the early 1900s - just a bit later, alcohol was prohibited as well....
There was widespread use of opiates until maybe the 1870s.  1890s at the latest.  The country has changed radically since then.  And all those people are dead.
But even opiates never occupied the same place as liquor, in part because people did not make their opium as poppies are hard to grow in some climates.  So while you could maybe make a valid comparison on drugs/alcohol in the 1890s, today it isnt the case.
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« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2006, 11:17:35 AM »
Quote
...as poppies are hard to grow in some climates...
I've seen poppies growing wild from northern Canada to Florida.


As for whether it's a valid comparison, you're no longer listening, nor are you giving me the courtesy of researching any of this as well. You're quite obviously set in your ways, which is saddening. In 100 years, if guns are no longer "socially acceptable", you'd be in favor of keeping them banned for the good of the country, based on that widespread use was so very long ago.

I won't be reading, nor posting, in this thread or the other drug-related threads again. I'm wasting my time.