Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.

[HForrest]

24's had some serious issues with illegal torture of suspects. I never agreed with it. Tonight, though, they've gone too far. They portray the side of basic human rights as some whiney, snively liberals who don't know anything about terrorism. The fact is, it's WRONG to use torture. ESPECIALLY on U.S. Citizens with basic Constitutional and civil rights. I don't care what "extreme circumstance" there is. "Extreme circumstances" lead to more power abuse and then dictatorships. It's WRONG WRONG WRONG and BLANTANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL and against the basic idea of human rights. I'm getting so tired of the propaganda crap 24 has spewed out this season.










(On the other hand, I noticed an MP5k this episode. Cool!)

[Winston Smith]

Actually, the 8th amendment only forbids cruel and unusual PUNISHMENT, not torture to gain a confession or information.

I mean, I agree withy our point, but your argument is weak.

It's WRONG to kill someone, but in certain circumstances it becomes RIGHT. Is torture one of those actions that NEVER become right? Like rape, or molestation, or speeding?

[Ukraine Train]

Relax, it's just TV lol

[HForrest]

Good point about the Constitution. I was just in rant mode, I can't believe how much of this crap 24 has been putting in this season.

Ukraine Train: It may just be a TV show, but it's a TV show millions of people watch, and propaganda messages inserted into it can influence people's opinions. When people watch the show, they're -cheering- for Jack Bauer or whoever it is torturing the suspect, because the suspect is an evil badguy terrorist. It's always the right decision and it always saves lives with the information gathered and the good federal agent who does it isn't reprimanded because what he did was the right thing and sometimes you just have to go "against the book".

Therefore, especially when it's shown over and over again, people get the idea that it's *okay* to torture people who we think are evil. People become more comfortable and acclimated with it- making it much easier for it to become reality.

[BillBlank]

I have to agree with Wombat's analysis and speculation as to the change in attitudes this kind of stuff can bring about. Gauntenemo bay is a neat example of what happens when people throw away or debase the very thing they are trying to defend by their actions doing so.

As an aside, whilst in Cuba (a lovely little dictatorship) this month I got stuck with CNN as my only source of news for two weeks.  I used to think that the Fox news slogan "Fair and Balanced" was some kind of ironic, self deprecatory, humour. I now see that relative to CNN they can get away with saying it. We got more balanced commentary and international news off Cuban national tv.

[tyme]

The shadowy torturer identified only as "Richards" is a bit excessive.

However, haven't Jack's torture episodes all been off-book?  He's always willing to accept the consequences of his actions if he's wrong.  The fact that he's never been wrong is a good indication (aside from it being a TV show) that his actions are justified.  In every single case he's gotten useful, relevant information through torture fater than he could have gotten it otherwise.

It's not as if his questionable activities only began this season.  In the past he's battered numerous people who had nothing to do with terror or assassination plots, killed some criminals and at least one non-criminal in cold blood (and at the behest of a terrorist, too), instructed his own daughter to fire a killing shot (albeit at a psychopath) in cold blood.  He's also caused a prison riot where who knows how many guards were injured, and one killed himself after Jack told him to play Russian roulette.

I think it's a bit late to whine about Jack's morals now that he's pretty much only torturing known terrorists.  

[45r]

My favorite part of the show was when Jack "gave" him something for the pain.

[Justin]

Actually, the 8th amendment only forbids cruel and unusual PUNISHMENT, not torture to gain a confession or information.

Are you high?! What is torture if not punishment for failing to provide information or actions that you would otherwise not comply with?

[bratch]

Earlier in the season they did have a torture episode where they admitted it was the wrong person.

I'm not sure what lengths I would go to to prevent a nuke going off in the US either...

[spacemanspiff]

i missed what he 'gave' the guy for his pain. what was it?

[Lt. G]

A smack in the back of the head, I believe Spiffy.

[Winston Smith]

Justin: I cede that point. No further argument.s

[Glock Glockler]

Justin,

Punishment, in the legal sense, is different from getting nasty to extract information.  Someone commits a crime, goes to trial, and is then convicted, it then becomes necessary to make an example of him to serve as a deterant, as well as remove him from the population for their own safety.  That is punishment.

That situation is very different from getting info from a guy because if you don't thousands of innocents will die.  You might know someone is guilty but you don't have the time to go through the legal channels to prove it because by the time you do you need bodybags by the busload.

I don't have the slightest problem with Bauer putting a hole in the guy's leg, I'd rather one guy experience pain and a limp than to have an entire city of people dead.  You might think of him as collateral damage.

[K Frame]

My favorite part of 24?

Surfing right the hell past it to a show that's actually interesting, like Naked Bimbo Robot Mud Wrestling on ESPN or, on TLC, "Home Lobotomies."

[armedcitizen]

"Relax, it's just TV lol"

+1 for that!  

I've never seen a television without an on/off switch.  If it bothers you, turn it off!

[kfranz]

Nobody said your life had to be free of idiots whose minds are influenced by TV shows.  Bitch all you want, but emotion isn't the answer to the problem....

[HForrest]

I like the show because it's well written and suspenseful. I'm concerned about the negative effect it might have on sheeple America, and I don't see what's wrong with me stating that.

[HForrest]

That situation is very different from getting info from a guy because if you don't thousands of innocents will die.  You might know someone is guilty but you don't have the time to go through the legal channels to prove it because by the time you do you need bodybags by the busload.

I don't have the slightest problem with Bauer putting a hole in the guy's leg, I'd rather one guy experience pain and a limp than to have an entire city of people dead.  You might think of him as collateral damage.

Just how do we know the guy isn't innocent? The word of one federal agent? I'm sorry, but that system is just screaming "abuse me", and that's why we have courts. What you're suggesting is a country in which any agency can determine one's guilt without a trial, hold them without charges, and torture them. That's wrong, my friend. Tell me that's a country you want to live in.

[kfranz]

I'm concerned about the negative effect it might have on sheeple America, and I don't see what's wrong with me stating that.

Nothing wrong with you being concerned or with your stating your concern.  Also nothing wrong with us telling you it's pretty foolish to get emotional about a TV show.

[Silver Bullet]

My favorite part of the show was when Jack "gave" him something for the pain.

That was great !  

So, whos the best interrogator, Jack Bauer (24), or Jack Bristow (Alias) ?

[atek3]

I'm crazy so take what I say on the matter with a grain of salt.

That show is fascist, and the whole point of it is to keep people afraid and willing to accept police state encroachments from the central government.

Ya, I'll still watch it, but that doesn't mean Jack Bauer is any less of a fascist.

atek3

[SteveS]

My favorite part of the show was when Jack "gave" him something for the pain.

That was great !  

So, who’s the best interrogator, Jack Bauer (24), or Jack Bristow (Alias) ?

If you are talking Alias, then I would have to say the best is that Chinese guy that used various dental techniques...nasty!

[Silver Bullet]

He was bad, but he didn't get any info from Sydney.

[Glock Glockler]

Combat Wombat,

Just how do we know the guy isn't innocent? The word of one federal agent? I'm sorry, but that system is just screaming "abuse me", and that's why we have courts. What you're suggesting is a country in which any agency can determine one's guilt without a trial, hold them without charges, and torture them. That's wrong, my friend. Tell me that's a country you want to live in

If the agent feels that strongly about the guy's guilt he should be willing to take the consequences of his actions.  If it turns out he's innocent he'll be in deep do-do but if he is right about the guy he should be pardoned.

[MicroBalrog]

5th Amendment.