Author Topic: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection  (Read 3911 times)

Balog

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Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« on: August 20, 2014, 12:24:31 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/magazine/bad-paper-debt-collector.html?

While I've long known the basic mechanics, I had never thought about how it actually played out. Really interesting stuff.

Quote
Siegel quickly discovered that when he bought the right kind of paper, the profits were astronomical. He obtained one portfolio for $28,527, collected more than $90,000 on it in just six weeks and then sold the remaining uncollected accounts for $31,000. Siegel bought another portfolio of debt for $33,388, collected more than $147,000 on it in four months and sold the remaining accounts for $33,124. Even to a seasoned Wall Street man, the margins were jaw-dropping.

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This was not a problem Siegel was used to handling. There had been no classes at Simon Business School on how to apprehend crooks who appropriated your assets.

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It wasn’t entirely accidental that Theresa’s debts ended up in the hands of thieves. When the original creditor, Washington Mutual, sold her debt, it stopped caring about what Theresa owed, how she was treated or what happened to her personal information.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 12:44:18 PM by Balog »
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vaskidmark

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2014, 01:16:15 PM »
A few days ago one of the talk stations was discusing something NPR apparently had broadcast about how to use "magic words" and get a collection lawsuit against you thrown out.

Apparently, if you wait till court and then ask the collection attorney to "show me the contract" - all the unbroken chain of paperwork from the original (alleged) debt to the people he represents buying the debt.  Supposedly, if they can not whip it out of their briefcase the whole thing will be thrown out.

Well, it was supposedly on NPR.  Would they lie to their listeners?

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AJ Dual

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2014, 03:33:24 PM »
The debt gets sold around so much for pennies on the dollar that the actual legal immediacy on it is really dilute.

I think if everyone in America knew how the system worked, they'd just ignore every call, and ignore every letter except being physically served with a suit for anything over some arbitrary number like $1500 where the value is worth getting an attorney or paralegal to actually file on the debtor in court, and just wait for the stuff to drop off their credit report.

And it seems to me that a crafty debtor could just tell these collectors that they've got a bankruptcy, or already paid it to some other agency and have "bad paper", and they'll just be unceremoniously crossed off the caller list, because it's a numbers game, and all you have to do is just make yourself an unappealing target.

From a capitalist/libertarian standpoint that's not right, but if everyone in the U.S. who owes a bunch of aged consumer debt knew how it all worked, they'd just clam up, refuse to pay, wait it out, and the price of "paper" would plummet to zero, until it got to the point that the banks, stores etc. all the initial lenders wouldn't be able to sell the debt to the first tier more legitimate agencies and write it off, and then the initial lenders would be a LOT more careful as to who they extended credit to in the first place, and the consumer debt crisis would end.



« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 03:38:04 PM by AJ Dual »
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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2014, 03:48:45 PM »
A few days ago one of the talk stations was discusing something NPR apparently had broadcast about how to use "magic words" and get a collection lawsuit against you thrown out.

Apparently, if you wait till court and then ask the collection attorney to "show me the contract" - all the unbroken chain of paperwork from the original (alleged) debt to the people he represents buying the debt.  Supposedly, if they can not whip it out of their briefcase the whole thing will be thrown out.

Well, it was supposedly on NPR.  Would they lie to their listeners?

stay safe.

Actually, this occurs with some frequency especially in some foreclosure actions.  Often times, the lender cannot actually prove that they own the debt, and thus have no standing to foreclose or collect.  I can especially see this in the brave new world of selling and reselling mortgages and other consumer debt.
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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2014, 04:11:22 PM »
A few days ago one of the talk stations was discusing something NPR apparently had broadcast about how to use "magic words" and get a collection lawsuit against you thrown out.

Apparently, if you wait till court and then ask the collection attorney to "show me the contract" - all the unbroken chain of paperwork from the original (alleged) debt to the people he represents buying the debt.  Supposedly, if they can not whip it out of their briefcase the whole thing will be thrown out.

Well, it was supposedly on NPR.  Would they lie to their listeners?

stay safe.

Actually valid. No need to wait for court, you can request to see the appropriate paperwork at any point.

I am not a lawyer, and I'd highly recommend having one on retainer before doing so.
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Jocassee

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2014, 05:12:18 PM »
Actually valid. No need to wait for court, you can request to see the appropriate paperwork at any point.

I am not a lawyer, and I'd highly recommend having one on retainer before doing so.

This is what I have heard as well.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2014, 05:18:49 PM »
IIRC you must make the request in writing, including giving the collector some amount of time to respond, and maintain proof of delivery.  If they can't produce said documentation within the alloted time then the next instance of collection attempt constitutes fraud.  If done across state lines it becomes a felony.

IANAL and this is all best-recollection so YMMV.

Edit to add... A handy page on the debt validation requests process:
http://www.creditinfocenter.com/forms/sampleletter9.shtml

Brad
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 05:24:16 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Scout26

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 05:47:57 PM »
Having spent about 10 days in foreclosure court.  Yeah.  No.


If Chase, BoA, or any other of the large banks originated your mortgage, they have the paper.  I saw at least 30 people try to play this card and each time the attorney for the bank went back to his table, went through the 3-4ft stack of folders, pulled out the correct one and proceeded to ask the homeowner/debtor "Is that your signature on the promissory note?"   Mike Drop.

Even the ones that had been done by WaMu and other failed banks that were bought out by the larger ones, they had the original (or at least copies) of the closing paperwork.

Perhaps if you got your loan from Grace L. Ferguson Fly by Night Loan, Airline and Stormdoor Company, who then sold to a servicer, how sold it to a bank and on and on and on, to the point where the "chain of custody" was lost, then perhaps.   But banks have wised up to this trick and it rarely works anymore.

However, for that old hospital or other bill that you forgot about 4 years ago and someone is calling about it now.  Tell them you paid it off and if they call again you're telling the feds. 
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Scout26

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2014, 05:57:01 PM »
I've also typed three posts abut my experience as a consumer and commerical collector, but the keyboard on my tablet thinks the backspace key = reboot.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 07:28:40 PM »
long story short, and I don't know all the details, but the IRS can/could sell off what you "owed" on any year you didn't file.

Dad found this out the hard way. A woman tried to hose him for his income taxes for three years in the 80's when he didn't actually have any income (rehab)
He ultimately told her to go f herself. Downside was she sold his information back to the IRS, which meant that about 20 years after the fact, he had to go prove to the IRS he didn't owe them money. Found out he did actually have enough income to owe a smidge on one year.
I often wonder how much money the IRS lost buying back his info, since I highly doubt what he had to pay was what they paid in order to get paid.
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Scout26

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 08:00:45 PM »
Okay, now that I'm on a real computer let em see if I can recreate those posts.


After working 2 Chicago winters hanging siding and doing other construction work outdoors,  I knew I had to a) keep my stupid butt in school and, b) find an indoor job.  A friend who worked for Montgomery Wards in their collections dept gave me lead/got me an interview.   It was for Min wage, but it was indoors and the hours were good (35ish hours per week, parttime.)   It was in the basement of the Wards store in Yorktown Mall in Lombard, IL.  a hop, skip, and jump from school.  

There were 15 sections.  (One for each billing cycle), each section had from 8-12 full-time (8am-4:30pm) collectors and 2-3 parttimers (3:30ish to 9pm, they were flexible on the hours for us.)   Each FT had a group of accounts and had a goal of x% to bring current before the next cycle.  Part-timers were assigned to work all the accounts or maybe focus on the accounts of one collector if they were having problems.  Our goals were 22 calls, 11 contacts (leaving a message on an answering machine to give us a call counted), and 3 promises to pay per hour.  

I found I was pretty good at it (That highly developed ability to fake sincerity and empathy  :P :laugh: :laugh: >:D >:D) Since I was the only person (it was surprisingly mostly women) with military experience, I was given all the military accounts (Find their unit and call their 1SG or CPO, and BOOM, payment arrives shortly thereafter.)  Nothing like calling Germany and Korea on someone else's dime.  "Hello 1SG !!!"

It would generally take you going about 15-30 days past due to get a call.  At 10 days you got a "Hey, forget something?" letter.  At 20 a "If you sent it, let us know so we can double check our system/records."  After that, you got a call from yours truly, Mr. Friendly.  =D  I really was.  The goal was to get them to pay, not go all Boomhauer so they hated us.

However, if you were a "frequent flyer", the calls start as soon as you were past due.

Anywho, the rules for calling consumers were looser back then.  If you had legitimate issues, we would work with you.  I remember one lady who owed something over $10k and was sending in $5 a month.  (We had stopped the interest.)  Husband killed in a accident, that left her paralyzed. IIRC, the drunk driver that hit them was also killed, but had no insurance and no assets, so there was no there "there".   What do you do?   We reported her as current with the credit bureau.  We also called her every month, simply because she like to talk to us.  Had a few older customers that we did that with.  (We reported those on our sheets as "Spent 25 minutes with Mrs. X tonight." to show that we weren't just screwing off.

This was back in old days.  We did have a mainframe computer system and green screen dumb terminals to look at the account info and history's, but we had to dial each number by hand.  Touch-tone desk phones at least.

About a year later, another of the Part-timers got me a Job at Dun & Bradstreet (he worked there full time).  That was eye-opening (and a $2 hour raise).  Commercial collections was way different.  There were no rules.    There were several companies that sold their receivables after they had gone anywhere from 45-120 days past due.   We called as if we were the company.    We each had to have a variety of names so that if someone called in looking for "Jim" their could route the call to the right collector (Some of us had several accounts which we shared and others had one, maybe two accounts).  We had several PO boxes to mail checks to, and we all answered the phones "Receivables."  The really fun ones were collecting for the creditors of Companies that had gone Tango Uniform.   "Hey, I thought you guys went Bankrupt?"   Ahhh, we did, but we've gone through it and you still owe us money.

Anybody here ever hear of "Farm Plan"  (John Deere Financing).  If "Tom" ever called you about your account with them in the mid to late 80's, that was me.

D&B did sell what ever it couldn't collect on to some collection agencies, but they transferred actual paper files that had all our notes and all in it.   I don't know if Monkey Wards did with their bad debt, but I know we had 3 in house lawyers that were always busy.  (You generally had 9-10 months to work out some arrangement or get sued.  They never told us what the cut off was.  Just accounts got referred to legal.  Some came back to be worked on more, others, we never heard about again.  
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 08:04:11 PM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2014, 03:20:30 AM »
Not quite 20 years ago I got into a dispute with the local hospital over a bill. For some reason my canceled checks to them with the correct amount and account numbers was insufficient proof that I had paid my bills. They sent it to collections. Actually had a guy threaten to come to my house and rough me up over it. Finally got it straightened out after a few months  and a couple.of calls and certified letter from a lawyer aquaintence* . Learned by way of a relative that worked at the hospital that the billing office slug had gotten in some trouble over the fiasco.

* He didn't charge me but was really hoping to get to sue the hospital.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 09:42:57 AM »
Gotta love hospitals.

In 2005 I went to the emergency  room because I thought I was having a stroke. They did some tests (EKG, ultrasound, etc).

I had a lot of bills that year, and I went well over my max out of pocket. By the time I'd gone for that emergency room visit, I'd already paid my max for the year.

I got a statement from them months later saying that my payment was more than X number of days overdue, and they were sending it to a collections agency. I contacted my insurance company and asked them to do an audit of my account. Their audit showed that I had paid my max out of pocket. It further showed that the hospital had entered the wrong insurance code and that, rather than me owing them money, they actually owed me money, as I'd overpaid the hospital.

I had them send a copy to the woman I'd been dealing with at the hospital. It didn't matter to her. She'd sent it to collections, and they wouldn't give me my refund until I paid my "overdue bill".

The woman at the collections agency was very pleasant, but said she didn't have the power to change the hospital's claim, and that only the hospital could do that.

That stayed on my credit report for years, even though it was their mistake.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 11:45:07 AM »
The local hospital had a neat trick. If you had a fairly large bill they would gladly and happily set up a monthly payment plan with you. Then at the 30 day mark send it to collections anyway, even if you'd made  the 2nd payment already.
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K Frame

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 12:15:29 PM »
There are at least five guys named Mike Irwin in the Washington, DC, metro area.

Unfortunately, one of them lives in my city, the difference being our middle initial, our zip code, and the fact that he apparently was in the military.

Then there's also the fact that he apparently went belly up starting around 2008-2009, which is when I started getting dozens of phone calls from his creditors, and later, from collection agencies.

I fielded a couple of calls at first because they were from companies that I did business with, but it became quickly evident that these weren't my debts, so I stopped answering. I did have a rather acrominous discussion with a Bank of America debt collector, who accused me of lying. I called her the nuclear C word, disavowed the debt in no uncertain terms, and told her never to call back...

At the height of it I was getting 4 and 5 calls a day; now it's maybe 2 to 3 a week. None of which I answer.
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K Frame

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 12:16:49 PM »
The local hospital had a neat trick. If you had a fairly large bill they would gladly and happily set up a monthly payment plan with you. Then at the 30 day mark send it to collections anyway, even if you'd made  the 2nd payment already.

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm almost certain that that is an actionable complaint and illegal as hell under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2014, 12:25:44 PM »
I'm not 100% sure, but I'm almost certain that that is an actionable complaint and illegal as hell under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.

It is.

Brad
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K Frame

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2014, 12:30:01 PM »
Then that's how you get a hospital to pay you for your stay, instead of you paying them.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2014, 12:55:26 PM »
Perhaps if you got your loan from Grace L. Ferguson Fly by Night Loan, Airline and Stormdoor Company, who then sold to a servicer, how sold it to a bank and on and on and on, to the point where the "chain of custody" was lost, then perhaps.   But banks have wised up to this trick and it rarely works anymore.

My major annoyance was actually from Blockbuster Video, back in the VHS days when they were having a rash of thefts from crappy night drop boxes; I'd rented several movies, then returned them to the drop box, (they didn't publicize the thefts until much later) then several months later, got a letter trying to collect on 5-6 $45 movies "not returned" over a two month period, including a couple hundred in skip trace fees even though I was still at the same address and phone number that was on my membership.  (Bearing in mind that these weren't even new releases when I rented them; I probably could have bought them all for less than $60 total.)
Apparently, they turned a bunch of people over to some fly-by-night collection agencies for the same thing, and the agency's idea of "documentation" when I requested an itemization, was to simply write back with "we have verified the validity of the debt."  Their justification for the skip trace fees was that I hadn't answered three phone calls.  (During normal business hours, when they know damn well most employed folks won't be answering a home phone - cell phones were still a high-end luxury item and even alpha-capable pagers were rare.)  I used the prepaid legal services benefit my employer at the time offered to get rid of them, but apparently they actually tried to go to court with anybody they thought would represent themselves.  AFAIK, they still lost every time, because the best documentation they had was signed notes from store managers.

So, yeah, I wouldn't count on it with a mortgage, but when you're dealing with a collector that is obviously just hoping you'll pay to shut them up, it's a quite effective tactic.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2014, 12:59:30 PM »
Mortgages are so highly regulated there is little question about paper trails and debt validity.  For "regular" consumer debt collection, though, the prove-it-or-kiss-off tactic is usually quite effective.

Brad
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K Frame

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2014, 01:07:38 PM »
"Mortgages are so highly regulated there is little question about paper trails and debt validity."

Uhm, IIRC, Bank of American as recently as a few years ago had HUGE problems actually verifying that they were the legal debt holders of record in some of the proceedings that they launched, and they weren't the only ones.

That's when all of the mortgage paper was being passed around the industry. They were attempting hundreds of foreclosures with nothing more than a "verification" signature to back up ownership. Even in a highly regulated market there were so many questions that more than a few homeowners never could figure out to whom they actually owed money.

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Brad Johnson

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2014, 01:12:19 PM »
Thus the inception of Orwellian mortgage documentation regs around the 2008-2010 time frame.  The required documentation went up almost exponentially.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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230RN

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2014, 01:23:44 PM »
Quote
I think if everyone in America knew how the system worked, they'd just ignore every call, and ignore every letter except being physically served with a suit for anything over some arbitrary number like $1500 where the value is worth getting an attorney or paralegal to actually file on the debtor in court, and just wait for the stuff to drop off their credit report.

Then there are "gutter service" subpoenas, where they swear they served  you, but actually threw it away ("in the gutter").  So you don't know you're been "served," don't show up in Court, and the judge orders a garnishment.

And the first thing you know about it is in your next paycheck.

Happened to me.

Terry
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K Frame

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2014, 01:27:00 PM »
Thus the inception of Orwellian mortgage documentation regs around the 2008-2010 time frame.  The required documentation went up almost exponentially.

Brad

That's wonderful for the mortgage debts incurred AFTER 2008...

Which are what, probably 1% to 2% of all mortgage debts outstanding?
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Fascinating look at the world of consumer debt collection
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2014, 01:34:03 PM »
No idea, but IIRC a bunch of the mess was flushed out with the '08-'09 crunch because most of the problem involved mortgages less than five years old.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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