Author Topic: On the A-10 Warthog  (Read 3720 times)

Ben

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On the A-10 Warthog
« on: August 26, 2014, 10:48:08 AM »
Interesting synopsis on designing the A-10:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEdy84YGf1k
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2014, 02:41:08 PM »
Here's my version of how design planning for the A-10 went:

Build a big [censored] gun.
...
Nope, bigger.
...
I said *BIGGER*....
...
Ok, now make it a gatling gun....
...
No, I want it to be able to fire 4,200 rounds per minute...
...
Ok, now build a plane around that gun.
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Devonai

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2014, 03:04:12 PM »
I had only been working at the CT Air Guard for three months when we lost the A-10s.  Man, those fighter jocks were pissed.  The replacement was the C-21A, and they made it their mission in life to make their passengers puke.  Now at least we have C-130Hs which are far more interesting.  But I miss working on a fighter base!
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wmenorr67

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2014, 03:09:55 PM »
I had only been working at the CT Air Guard for three months when we lost the A-10s.  Man, those fighter jocks were pissed.  The replacement was the C-21A, and they made it their mission in life to make their passengers puke.  Now at least we have C-130Hs which are far more interesting.  But I miss working on a fighter base!

You could move to Tulsa and transfer to the 138th.  They fly the F-16's.
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Devonai

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2014, 08:53:58 PM »
I'm an air cargo specialist.  They are not in great demand at fighter bases.  =D
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2014, 10:30:04 PM »
Air Force want to junk them.  Army wants them.  I say let the Army put its money where its mouth is and let Army do more of the CAS role if AF is going to toss their best CAS asset.

Army already operates more air platforms than the Air Force.  Let the AF stay up in their fast-movers and let serious folk take care of business on/near the dirt.
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 12:12:26 AM »
Air Force want to junk them.  Army wants them.  I say let the Army put its money where its mouth is and let Army do more of the CAS role if AF is going to toss their best CAS asset.

Army already operates more air platforms than the Air Force.  Let the AF stay up in their fast-movers and let serious folk take care of business on/near the dirt.

I won't trash other services, I'll just say that it is a crime against humanity that a Marine was never allowed to take one of these into combat.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 12:20:46 AM »
I won't trash other services, I'll just say that it is a crime against humanity that a Marine was never allowed to take one of these into combat.

Crazy pie-in-the-sky thought: develop a STOL variant that can be operated from Wasp class amphibious assault ships?
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 12:27:16 AM »
Gonna be hard to really replace the 'Hog.  (Apologies... the A10 Thunderbolt ll.)  More of a "what do we have that might be almost half as good?".   Nothing in the aerial arsenal comes anywhere close to the brutal effectiveness and rugged survivability.  It's a rep well earned, and one that'll be damned hard to match.

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 12:39:51 AM »
It's a strange thing.The A-10 is the only plane that sticks in my head as being lauded in the news.Different TV programs praised it.I don't recall ever hearing a serious negative.Unlike the Harrier or the Osprey it seems to have been a great plane.So they decided to get rid of it.Only makes sense to someone in government.

FWIW,If the Pentagon announced tomorrow that they had just ordered 1000 new Thunderbolts to bolster force X,I'd applaud.
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 12:58:14 AM »
Quote
rugged survivability

Yes, it has survivability against guns and older handheld SAMs, and the legacy SAM systems of the '70s, in a fairly permissive environment. The A-10 was intended to take out a lot of Russian armor while being protected by dedicated fighters and Wild Weasels hitting the major SAM systems.

Survivability against modern SAMs? Might be a different story, and it's an issue we should be investigating, you know, before we end up in a war against a major power with those advanced systems. It's coming, and if we're stuck fighting that war with 40-50 year old aircraft and a handful of modern ones we are going to be at a decided disadvantage, A-10s or not. 

Quote
Crazy pie-in-the-sky thought: develop a STOL variant that can be operated from Wasp class amphibious assault ships?

Not really feasible.

No tailhook for an arrested landing. The landing gear is not reinforced to take the landing shock.

And the wings do not fold.

To remedy these issues you're talking major modifications and such on the level of a complete redesign.

Quote
Insert Quote
It's a strange thing.The A-10 is the only plane that sticks in my head as being lauded in the news.Different TV programs praised it.I don't recall ever hearing a serious negative.Unlike the Harrier or the Osprey it seems to have been a great plane.So they decided to get rid of it.Only makes sense to someone in government.

It's a very popular aircraft but it's getting long in the tooth and the A/F, like the rest of the military, is being drastically cut and is having to make some hard decisions. They've dug themselves into a hole with the F-35. I predict the A-10 will be around for a while longer but the numbers will keep dwindling.

The Harrier is not a bad aircraft, but it's positively ancient and not an aircraft for the novice pilot. It is, however, the only truly successful V/STOL jet out there at the moment.

The Osprey is proving to be a good bit more successful than predicted.
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wmenorr67

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 07:13:17 AM »
There was a plan in place to turn the A-10 over to the Army to replace some of our Intel platforms, then Gulf War I happened and the rest is history.
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K Frame

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 09:47:35 AM »
"Survivability against modern SAMs?"

Even the F-35 isn't guaranteed survival against modern SAMs.

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HankB

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 10:36:43 AM »
It's a very popular aircraft but it's getting long in the tooth and the A/F, like the rest of the military, is being drastically cut and is having to make some hard decisions.
Hmmm . . . keep more warplanes, or upgrade the officer's mess and golf courses . . . decisions, decisions.
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 10:44:03 AM »
Hmmm . . . keep more warplanes, or upgrade the officer's mess and golf courses  increase sensitivity, diversity and inclusiveness programs. . . decisions, decisions.

FTFY. Your head is stuck in the good ole' days.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 01:01:40 PM by SADShooter »
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2014, 10:50:13 AM »
Yes, it has survivability against guns and older handheld SAMs, and the legacy SAM systems of the '70s, in a fairly permissive environment. The A-10 was intended to take out a lot of Russian armor while being protected by dedicated fighters and Wild Weasels hitting the major SAM systems.

IOW, exactly what would turn an ISIS convoy into a baby harp seal hunt.  If we gotta do something with them, train some Peshmerga and donate the planes.

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2014, 11:27:17 AM »
"IOW, exactly what would turn an ISIS convoy into a baby harp seal hunt.  If we gotta do something with them, train some Peshmerga and donate the planes."

Which is exactly what happened in the later days of Gulf War I when the vaunted Iraqi Air Defense Network, considered to be the most comprehensively interlocked and densely populated by missiles and guns in the world at that time, had been systematically sliced, diced, and destroyed.

Upon the invasion of Kuwait the Iraqis had extended their air defense network to cover their new territory. It didn't make a lick of difference.

The so-called Highway of Death was a free-for-all kill zone with virtually no opposition of any kind to the Navy, Marine, and Air Force aircraft that attacked it, including low-level passes by A-10s.

A friend of mine was an Army Cobra pilot during the war and made repeated (often several a day) sorties into the war zone. He said after the first week or so of the air war normally the only thing coming up from the ground at them was small arms fire. All of the handheld missiles had apparently been expended or destroyed, and the mobile missile and gun defenses attached to individual units had been destroyed.
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2014, 03:43:03 PM »
IOW, exactly what would turn an ISIS convoy into a baby harp seal hunt.  If we gotta do something with them, train some Peshmerga and donate the planes.

I've had that exact thought myself.
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2014, 06:18:24 PM »
Air Force want to junk them.  Army wants them.  I say let the Army put its money where its mouth is and let Army do more of the CAS role if AF is going to toss their best only CAS asset.

Fixed it for you.

Army already operates more air platforms than the Air Force.  Let the AF stay up in their fast-movers and let serious folk take care of business on/near the dirt.

Agreed. Few people today are old enough to remember that there was no "Air Force" in World War 2. It was the "Army Air Corps." It just doesn't make sense to be retiring the only aircraft capable of providing the kind of CAS the grunts need. If the Air Force wants to focus on shiny new toys that go faster and higher, then give 'em to the Army so the grunts can protect themselves.
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2014, 06:46:05 PM »
Between that, and new warships lacking much meaningful gunfire support for an opposed landing, one wonders if war (not the same thing as armed conflict) is thought to be so... last season.  Passé.
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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2014, 11:53:46 PM »
Marines don't need it to be STOL. Plenty of Marine aviating happens from dry land. You could most likely crane them on, ferry them trans-ocean on an L-class and then deck launch them to an airfield.

Osprey successful? Sure, call me when it is as old as the phrog it replaced. Yes it carries a lot, far. Add up the program cost, the ship modification costs, the reduced ship capacity for other aircraft, the maintenance costs, etc. We need a new transport helo metric, something like $$ to tonnage with mileage thrown in.
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Re:
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2014, 01:29:32 AM »
I for one would get a sick thrill seeing an a10 as part of an army avn bn or cav unit.  Flown by army warrant officers.
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Re:
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2014, 01:01:00 PM »
Here's my version of how design planning for the A-10 went:

Build a big [censored] gun.
...
Nope, bigger.
...
I said *BIGGER*....
...
Ok, now make it a gatling gun....
...
No, I want it to be able to fire 4,200 rounds per minute...
...
Ok, now build a plane around that gun.

Well... The mission requirements was "close range CAS", which all but specified the GAU-8 Avenger. And the aircraft was designed around the weapon.

So... Actually, yes. Pretty much.


Air Force want to junk them.  Army wants them.  I say let the Army put its money where its mouth is and let Army do more of the CAS role if AF is going to toss their best CAS asset.

Army already operates more air platforms than the Air Force.  Let the AF stay up in their fast-movers and let serious folk take care of business on/near the dirt.

I know I've upset plenty of USAF folks by claiming the USAF has little interest in CAS specific airframes or giving any airframes to the Army.

I'm probably overly... assertive? in that line of thought, I admit that. The youngest A-10 airframe is 30 years old. The oldest, 42. Older an airframe gets, more maintenance it needs and more likely it is to break. And the average A-10 airframe is subjected to significantly different stresses than most cargo haulers.

That said, it is damn near criminal to lose the A-10. If you gave me the option of throwing every F-35 into the ocean in exchange for a thousand A-10's and better ADA or going with our projected F-35 procurement schedule, I'd build a gorram F-35 catapult out of my own gorram pocket. Your optimal CAS aircraft is low, slow, good line of sight at the ground, maneuverable, long loiter intervals, and hoards bombs like a proper APS'er hoards ammo.

I can seem to be overly dismissive of air superiority. Multi-role fighters are important. Very important. But they will NEVER do CAS like an A-10. Physics are a harsh mistress. If you want supersonic aircraft, you need wildly different characteristics than something designed for subsonic performance. You can't bolt on a different weapons loadout and replicate the same capacity. An A-10 can't do supercruise and an F-22 can't do repeated gun runs on enemy forces at 200ft AGL at 130 knots.

The GAU-8 Avenger is a beautiful weapon, but it's not just about looks. It's the ability to put rounds on target at extremely close ranges without injuring friendlies. Few artillery rounds or missiles can kill a target with virtually no risk to friendly forces in the open at distances of 20 or 30 meters. Only kinetic weapons can do so, which we DO have, usually normal munitions with the payload replaced with concrete. Concrete is a surprisingly handy weapon for urban combat.


The House FY 2015 spending bill blocks A-10 retirement. Be sure to call your Congresscritter and let them know that a vote for retirement of the A-10 is damn near the same thing as treason until we have something that's the same or better.


I for one would get a sick thrill seeing an a10 as part of an army avn bn or cav unit.  Flown by army warrant officers.

I was the commo dork for a combined fire exercise of an entire division's worth of artillery (three regiments) and a half dozen A-10.

Never have I felt closer to the Gods than I did that day. Closest I can describe it is that it sounded like a particularly nasty bar fight between many angry trains.
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K Frame

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2014, 01:06:47 PM »
"And the aircraft was designed around the weapon."

Both, actually, as in the GAU-8 was also designed around the framework of the A-10.

The gun and the plane were developed concurrently, with the contractor teams (different companies) working very closely together at every step of the process.

Holy crap, according to Wikipedia (it must be false!) the standard ammo loadout for this thing is 1,150 round! I never dreamed it was that much.
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wmenorr67

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Re: On the A-10 Warthog
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2014, 01:14:27 PM »
The only other thing in our arsenal that could compete with the A-10 is the Apache and Cobras but those both have limited range.

That saying if I'm in the fight I would never turn any of them away if they are there.
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