Hmm. What could go wrong with this.

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Wow. Hopefully it isn't true.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/missing-libyan-jetliners-raise-fears-of-suicide-airliner-attacks-on-911/

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I've seen it on other sites


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[MechAg94]

I am sure Homeland security will start a new commercial pilot and jet sharing program with Libya as a friendly gesture.

[KD5NRH]

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/missing-libyan-jetliners-raise-fears-of-suicide-airliner-attacks-on-911/

To their credit, a lot of those countries are more likely to implement a temporary policy of at least close-escort with weapons hot if not shoot on sight any jet without a functioning and valid transponder and/or not precisely following orders.  Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure most, if not all of those planes have the range to reach CONUS from there, especially with no passengers or cargo.

Come to think of it, what would the range of the 320s be if you stripped out all the seats, galley equipment, and everything else not important to the structure and airworthiness?

[Jamisjockey]

Getting an airliner that is not equipped for over water flight across the Atlantic isn't exactly like driving to the corner store.
Of course that doesn't discount closer targets such as embassies or what not.
My money is on someone building themselves a fleet for black market smuggling.

[KD5NRH]

Getting an airliner that is not equipped for over water flight across the Atlantic isn't exactly like driving to the corner store.

If you don't care about following rules or landing safely, flying can be taught in an hour or two.  All that other stuff is how to get you, your passengers and anyone else in the air to the destination in one piece.  Remove that constraint and the whole game changes dramatically.

Hell, I'd be willing to bet I could go to the local airport in reasonable weather, take off in any of the mechanically sound planes there, and get it over any place within fuel range, based on the few lessons I took 23 years ago and flying with granddad when he was the airport manager.  Doing it comfortably, with smoothly coordinated turns and properly planned maneuvers, no.  Walking away from a landing, 40-80% chance depending on the plane.  Landing it in condition to take off again, maybe 20% chance for most of them, better for some.  Intentionally slamming it into a large object, probably 99% chance of success.  Knowing any of the procedures for a given in-flight emergency or even just normal traffic patterns would be pure luck of the memory.  Starting a turbine engine would definitely be ugly, but given time to find the checklist, I'm reasonably confident I could get it fired up.

[charby]

If you don't care about following rules or landing safely, flying can be taught in an hour or two.  All that other stuff is how to get you, your passengers and anyone else in the air to the destination in one piece.  Remove that constraint and the whole game changes dramatically.

Hell, I'd be willing to bet I could go to the local airport in reasonable weather, take off in any of the mechanically sound planes there, and get it over any place within fuel range, based on the few lessons I took 23 years ago and flying with granddad when he was the airport manager.  Doing it comfortably, with smoothly coordinated turns and properly planned maneuvers, no.  Walking away from a landing, 40-80% chance depending on the plane.  Landing it in condition to take off again, maybe 20% chance for most of them, better for some.  Intentionally slamming it into a large object, probably 99% chance of success.  Knowing any of the procedures for a given in-flight emergency or even just normal traffic patterns would be pure luck of the memory.  Starting a turbine engine would definitely be ugly, but given time to find the checklist, I'm reasonably confident I could get it fired up.

So which gizmo is the on button?

[Scout26]

I think this is mostly hype.  Given that there was a great deal of fighting in and around the airport, I highly doubt any are in a flyable condition, even if they had the fuel, lubes and other things (pilots) needed to get them airborne. (look at the pics they posted.)   Possible:  Yes.  Probable:  No.  Imminent: Highly doubtful.  And the longer they sit, the less flyable they become.

Navigating over water is also tricky, especially if you aren't transponding/emitting.  Yeah, they could buy a garmin and plug it into the cigarette lighter, but I doubt it.  


So, I think this is much ado about nothing.  However, that does not mean I do not think they won't try and do something on 9/11.

[KD5NRH]

So which gizmo is the on button?

Left overhead panel.  Battery master is just left of the APU start knob.  IIRC, all the planes they got were Airbus, though.  I think those have master power at the front center of the overhead.

Remember; they're not concerned about all the comm gear, no smoking signs or even any nav beyond getting it in visual range of whatever large and easily idenitfiable object they want to hit.  Having a pilot who does know how to fly it put some butcher tape over all the stuff that becomes irrelevant in that context (or just remove knobs, switches or entire panels) would make the view a lot simpler for the expendable he's teaching.  Given a month or two to prep, zero concern for pilot safety, and the internet, figuring out how to get it in the air ceases to be rocket science.

Heck, for that matter, have the experienced pilot start it up, taxi out and line up on the runway.  Then he can get out and let the minimally trained expendable take it from there while he goes to prep the next dozen the same way.

[MechAg94]

Plus, the big damage to the Twin Towers was caused by the huge amounts of jet fuel dumped into the building with the plane.  How much fuel will those planes have left if the cross the Atlantic? 
I am more concern about targeting another country or one of our embassies. 

[KD5NRH]

Plus, the big damage to the Twin Towers was caused by the huge amounts of jet fuel dumped into the building with the plane.  How much fuel will those planes have left if the cross the Atlantic?

It was the big factor in that case, however, we've helpfully pointed out how valuable and delicate electric susbstations can be, and there are plenty of other targets that wouldn't need a full fuel load to cause extreme havoc...especially when they have all the leisure time to pack whatever real explosives they can find.

[Boomhauer]

Why is it that when I hear about these supposedly missing airliners it sets off my bullshit detector...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Why do you? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741428/Officials-warn-ELEVEN-missing-airplanes-Libya-used-carry-terrorist-attack-9-11-anniversary.html


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[erictank]

So which gizmo is the on button?

The one on the left.

[Fly320s]

If you don't care about following rules or landing safely, flying can be taught in an hour or two.  All that other stuff is how to get you, your passengers and anyone else in the air to the destination in one piece.  Remove that constraint and the whole game changes dramatically.

Hell, I'd be willing to bet I could go to the local airport in reasonable weather, take off in any of the mechanically sound planes there, and get it over any place within fuel range, based on the few lessons I took 23 years ago and flying with granddad when he was the airport manager.  Doing it comfortably, with smoothly coordinated turns and properly planned maneuvers, no.  Walking away from a landing, 40-80% chance depending on the plane.  Landing it in condition to take off again, maybe 20% chance for most of them, better for some.  Intentionally slamming it into a large object, probably 99% chance of success.  Knowing any of the procedures for a given in-flight emergency or even just normal traffic patterns would be pure luck of the memory.  Starting a turbine engine would definitely be ugly, but given time to find the checklist, I'm reasonably confident I could get it fired up.

I'd love to put you into a simulator to try that.  That would be fun to watch. 

By the way, a checklist doesn't tell you anything.  It is a list of items/tasks to check, not a to-do list.

[KD5NRH]

I'd love to put you into a simulator to try that.  That would be fun to watch.

OK.  Biggest thing I've seen there outside of an airshow was a G4, and remember, communicating and landing safely aren't part of the mission; just smashing it into point B.  Only thing I've landed was a 172 with an instructor ready to take over.

By the way, a checklist doesn't tell you anything.  It is a list of items/tasks to check, not a to-do list.

The turbine engine startup checklists I've seen (granted, those were for helicopters, since jets were really rare at the local airport back then) had the critical stuff (what RPM for ignition, fuel flow, etc) in the right order.

[HankB]

It was the big factor in that case, however, we've helpfully pointed out how valuable and delicate electric susbstations can be, and there are plenty of other targets that wouldn't need a full fuel load to cause extreme havoc...especially when they have all the leisure time to pack whatever real explosives they can find.

It wouldn't take a whole lot of imagination to think of numerous "soft" targets that wouldn't stand up to a 600 MPH impact from an airliner on a kamikazi run, even with nearly dry fuel tanks . . . maybe not as symbolic as the Twin Towers or Pentagon, but pretty serious nonetheless.

I hope Obama et.al. are seriously considering issuing live ammo for our military aviators, even if they're not in the sandbox.

[KD5NRH]

It wouldn't take a whole lot of imagination to think of numerous "soft" targets that wouldn't stand up to a 600 MPH impact from an airliner on a kamikazi run, even with nearly dry fuel tanks . . . maybe not as symbolic as the Twin Towers or Pentagon, but pretty serious nonetheless.

Hell, just the stampede if you dropped one on a major sporting event or theme park would be devastating.  With 11 of them to play with, they could crash 4-8 on the major highways out of a city, and still have enough left over to do some damage while the panic is working its own havoc.

The real master stroke would be burying two of them in the desert somewhere they'll never be found, so people will always be waiting for the next time.

[Firethorn]

It was the big factor in that case, however, we've helpfully pointed out how valuable and delicate electric susbstations can be, and there are plenty of other targets that wouldn't need a full fuel load to cause extreme havoc...especially when they have all the leisure time to pack whatever real explosives they can find.

In general I'd LOVE for them to hit an electric substation over an occupied building.  Even a stadium with an almost empty plane shouldn't be as bad as the twin towers with full ones.  It's one of those cases where our fear would do more damage than the actual incident.  Which at this point I include 9/11 in.

Indeed, this reminds me of my proposal for solar panels to help power FOBs.  My justification amounted to:
1.  Diesel is expensive and dangerous to deliver to FOBs, as it's a flammable material that has to be delivered by truck over land.  Prime RPG/IED bait. 
2.  Environmental concerns is a serious problem for deployed troops.  The air quality there is often horrible, and the generators aren't helping.

Ergo:
1.  Reducing the amount of diesel we have to deliver can reduce costs substantially - Going by what I've seen for the cost of delivered diesel/JP-8 to FOBS, payback time was crazy fast - Under a year even if you cut the price of diesel in half.  Yes, in many cases I was seeing payback times on the order of 3-6 months.
2.  It would also cut the size and number of convoys we have to run to keep the bases supplied, saving lives especially when you consider the vulnerability of fuel trucks.
3.  The solar panels are valuable and ultimately light enough to fly in.  Even if you do it gradually whenever there's enough space/weight capacity free to load up a pallet of them.

The reason it reminded me - "What if the insurgents target the panels?", to which my response was that I'd MUCH rather see insurgents getting distracted shooting/blasting some $800 panels than our $1M+ soldiers.

Now that I think about it more, I wonder how the panels do in explosions?  They stand up to hail pretty good, but are they a shrapnel risk or would they mostly deflect explosions?

[RevDisk]

In general I'd LOVE for them to hit an electric substation over an occupied building.  Even a stadium with an almost empty plane shouldn't be as bad as the twin towers with full ones.  It's one of those cases where our fear would do more damage than the actual incident.  Which at this point I include 9/11 in.

Indeed, this reminds me of my proposal for solar panels to help power FOBs.  My justification amounted to:
1.  Diesel is expensive and dangerous to deliver to FOBs, as it's a flammable material that has to be delivered by truck over land.  Prime RPG/IED bait. 
2.  Environmental concerns is a serious problem for deployed troops.  The air quality there is often horrible, and the generators aren't helping.

Ergo:
1.  Reducing the amount of diesel we have to deliver can reduce costs substantially - Going by what I've seen for the cost of delivered diesel/JP-8 to FOBS, payback time was crazy fast - Under a year even if you cut the price of diesel in half.  Yes, in many cases I was seeing payback times on the order of 3-6 months.
2.  It would also cut the size and number of convoys we have to run to keep the bases supplied, saving lives especially when you consider the vulnerability of fuel trucks.
3.  The solar panels are valuable and ultimately light enough to fly in.  Even if you do it gradually whenever there's enough space/weight capacity free to load up a pallet of them.

The reason it reminded me - "What if the insurgents target the panels?", to which my response was that I'd MUCH rather see insurgents getting distracted shooting/blasting some $800 panels than our $1M+ soldiers.

Now that I think about it more, I wonder how the panels do in explosions?  They stand up to hail pretty good, but are they a shrapnel risk or would they mostly deflect explosions?

If solar panels could be used to replace generators, they already would have.

Problem is, they're not as reliable or as portable. You need a lot of solar panels for useful power, and they also have to be protected. A generator can be secured by putting it in a concrete shed or bunker. Solar panels require fences, guard towers with humans manning them. If nothing else, they'd be stolen. Insurgents and local host nations would steal dirt or sand from us if advantageous.

Solar panels for FOBs are more expensive, they're a LOT larger, they're less reliable, they require more security, they're much more complex, they require massive battery banks, etc.

They can be very useful for low watt remote applications. And already are used for that. We power repeater sites on hill tops with solar. Same thing with intel platforms like cameras or whatnot. I could see them being useful for recharging radios or other electronics for long range patrols, and I understand they're used for that purpose already.

[KD5NRH]

Now that I think about it more, I wonder how the panels do in explosions?  They stand up to hail pretty good, but are they a shrapnel risk or would they mostly deflect explosions?

Tempered glass over a stretchy glue and a plastic backer in an extruded aluminum frame.  Safe bet; assume a solar panel will react to physical trauma pretty much like a car windshield.

[brimic]

A friend of mine who owns a machine shop/prototyping business was building a portable solar array for someone with a FEMA contract.
What he built was an utility trailer that had 4 large solar panels that fold out, which charge up a pair of fork lift batteries. The controls could be operated and monitored remotely with a cell phone app , and pigtails were built in to daisy chain an unlimited number of trailers together.
He told me it was around $25K worth of materials to build one. I've never been very impressed with solar power, but the prototype he built impressed me. That being said, I'm not entirely sure as to ho much energy it outputs, or how long it takes to fully charge the batteries.

[MechAg94]

Hell, just the stampede if you dropped one on a major sporting event or theme park would be devastating.  With 11 of them to play with, they could crash 4-8 on the major highways out of a city, and still have enough left over to do some damage while the panic is working its own havoc.

The real master stroke would be burying two of them in the desert somewhere they'll never be found, so people will always be waiting for the next time.

Good point about a sporting event.  Crashing into one of the cover domed fields would be very symbolic.  If done right, a plane full of explosives exploding mid-air at the right elevation over a full football stadium could cause a LOT of casualties.  Not easy to do.  Not sure I want to even think about it. 

[Jamisjockey]

If you look at the list of aircraft, most of them wouldn't make it across the Atlantic, they don't have the range.  The airbus 330 might be the only one on the list that could make it.  It's about 6,000 miles from Africa to the United States.  But then, add in the distance from an airport they can take off, and a suitable target in the US.  

The state-owned Libyan Airlines fleet until this summer included 14 passenger and cargo jetliners, including seven Airbus 320s, one Airbus 330, two French ATR-42 turboprop aircraft, and four Bombardier CJR-900s.

The planning and logistics to sneak one across the Atlantic would be huge. Tom Clancy novel huge.  You need capable pilots who can dispatch, flight plan, and trans-Atlantic pilot the aircraft. 
And you're not flying anything like that across the Atlantic "under the radar". Gas consumption makes this impossible.  Not improbable, but impossible.
Maybe, just maybe they could fly one into a target in Africa, or Europe if they get lucky.

I see a lot of hand wringing over nothing but fear mongering by the media.

No, these planes are going to end up on the black market in Africa and the Middle East.  And probably only the simple to fly ones like the ATR's.  

This story needs to *expletive deleted*ing die.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

How'd they get the planes over there originally?