Author Topic: Scottish independence a possibility  (Read 8706 times)

Tallpine

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2014, 02:54:52 PM »
Wasn't there a British guy at the time that said that the American Revolution was nothing but a Scots-Irish revolt  ???
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agricola

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2014, 03:06:19 PM »
Maybe not "freedom loving" in the vein of wanting everyone to have their own nation, but certainly very much interested in not being told what to do by others.  Whether or not that's "freedom loving" depends on your point of view (and whether or not you're being told to eff off or telling someone to eff off).

Surely thats much more of an English trait than it is a Scots or an Irish one, though?   
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Tallpine

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2014, 03:13:36 PM »
Surely thats much more of an English trait than it is a Scots or an Irish one, though?   

Britons or Anglo-Saxons  ???


There was Boudicca and the Icenians  :cool:
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agricola

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2014, 03:21:36 PM »
Britons or Anglo-Saxons  ???


There was Boudicca and the Icenians  :cool:

Specifically English, or Anglo-Saxon if you like. 
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mtnbkr

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2014, 03:22:01 PM »
Surely thats much more of an English trait than it is a Scots or an Irish one, though?   

I'm sure there are freedom-loving people in England proper, but it is the Scots-Irish (Ulster Scots) that are associated with extremes of that mentality in the US.  This is borne out by historical writings from various parts of our history.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2014, 05:02:25 PM »
I think that is a clear case of projection - its very hard to find any evidence of the Scots fighting for independence once James IV became the King of England...

Do you mean James VI?


Not so much the Indian killing, that's plain ol' murder...
 

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2014, 05:10:09 PM »
http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/7302


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Tallpine

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2014, 05:13:48 PM »
Specifically English, or Anglo-Saxon if you like. 

The Teutonic tribes seem to have a taste for discipline and order, unlike the Britons, Scots, Irish, etc.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Scout26

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2014, 05:28:18 PM »
My brother and Great-Aunt have done quite a bit of research on my paternial forebearers and it appears that quite a few of them seemed to have taken personal umbrage at the English mucking around in Ireland and thereby earned themselves a one-way ticket to Austrailia.
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Tallpine

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2014, 05:31:15 PM »
My brother and Great-Aunt have done quite a bit of research on my paternial forebearers and it appears that quite a few of them seemed to have taken personal umbrage at the English mucking around in Ireland and thereby earned themselves a one-way ticket to Austrailia.

Ah, yes. I knew your people, Sean. Your grandfather, he died in Australia, in a penal colony. And your father, he was a good man too.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MillCreek

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2014, 11:29:20 PM »
Although there are a few hours left to count the ballots, the initial results are consistent with the recent polling: independence is being voted down.  Estimates are that the 'No' vote rejecting independence will end up with around 53-55% of the total vote.  I will be interested to see the final numbers tomorrow.
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2014, 12:54:04 AM »
BBC is calling it a No, with a 55/45 no vote as of 3 minutes ago.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2014, 03:36:42 AM »
One analysis I heard of the independence movement was that it was mostly a far left push to more or less establish a welfare state funded primarily by North Sea oil revenue.
Any one else hear same or different?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2014, 07:03:35 AM »
One analysis I heard of the independence movement was that it was mostly a far left push to more or less establish a welfare state funded primarily by North Sea oil revenue.
Any one else hear same or different?


That jibes with what I've been reading about this. I.e., the Scots are a bunch of socialist bums, and Scottish independence would leave the UK a more conservative polity.
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Jocassee

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2014, 09:05:30 AM »
So not that freedom-loving, then. 

Trust me when I say the irony is not lost on me.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2014, 10:35:16 AM »
An English co-worker was telling us on a conf. call this AM how Scotland is way over the "tipping point", that 55% of the employment/economy is .gov or tax-based in some manner. Teachers, military, police, government clerks etc. Funny how that aligned with the vote.

He was wistful that it could have meant England could stop subsidizing them, however he agreed fully when I pointed out it probably saved England money in the long run, as the current rate of subsidy is probably cheaper than having a failed state with shared infrastructure and open borders that England would have to just bail out at more expense later.


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Balog

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2014, 12:09:13 PM »
Given how the Irish gov't loves it some EU domination, I would say that the Irish don't mind being dominated and ruled by foreign bastards.  What they minded was being dominated by English bastards.

We may get to see if the Scots are made of similar domitable stuff.




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Balog

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2014, 12:12:29 PM »
One analysis I heard of the independence movement was that it was mostly a far left push to more or less establish a welfare state funded primarily by North Sea oil revenue.
Any one else hear same or different?

I was sort of vaguely in favor of the secession movement at first, just because I'm in favor of the idea of secession and would like to see it spread and become common place in the Western world.

But when I actually started seeing the arguments the Yes people were putting forward, I lost any sympathy. Bunch of whiny pacifist anti-nuke hippy BS.
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MillCreek

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2014, 01:58:44 PM »
It will be interesting to see what additional powers Westminster will be granting to Scotland.  They already have a legal, healthcare and educational system separate and distinct from the rest of the UK.  I once looked into how I could qualify for the Scottish Bar, and it turned out that the best way would be to qualify as a solicitor into England via the Qualified Lawyers Transfer Scheme and then take the UK transfer test from the Scottish Law Society to be admitted in Scotland.
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bedlamite

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2014, 04:14:33 PM »
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

agricola

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2014, 06:42:08 PM »
One analysis I heard of the independence movement was that it was mostly a far left push to more or less establish a welfare state funded primarily by North Sea oil revenue.
Any one else hear same or different?

Not really.  The Yes campaign (and the SNP itself, come to think of it) were a load of disparate groups whose sole common policy was for an independent Scotland - they did come out with a lot of socialist type stuff, but that was probably at least as much about attracting the Labour vote (which is still the biggest in the country, and which has grown accustomed to being bought off) as it was a representation of the actual opinions of the SNP.  For all his many faults, Salmond is not a fool and he would have known that, had they won last night, there was no way even with all the North Sea Oil that they would have been able to even sustain the status quo.

IMHO a far greater handicap that they faced was that the Yes position isnt really based on any historical justification; Scotland didnt become part of the UK because it was occupied by the English, and it has done very well out of the Union - arguably even more than the English have.  I think that deep down, most Scots understand this.  

What will be important now is not what the Scottish Parliament gets, but what the rest end up with.  There is already talk of an English Parliament (probably just composing the MPs for English constituencies, voting only on matters that just affects England), and more powers for Wales (which will be interesting to say the least, given that for every year that the Senedd is in existence the division between North and South Wales becomes more and more apparent - if we ever went independent, there would probably be two Waleses within a generation).
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just Warren

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2014, 09:10:19 PM »
You can do a lot of agitating with 45% of a population. That's a huge constituency that can seek out a lot of rent or favors.
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Tallpine

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2014, 11:05:46 AM »
I wonder how a public vote for independence would have gone in the American Colonies in 1776  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Ron

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2014, 06:51:07 PM »
I wonder how a public vote for independence would have gone in the American Colonies in 1776  ???

Most would have stuck with the status quo out of fear of reprisal from England.

Once the founders decided a nation of laws was preferable to monarchy or pure democracy the die was cast.

In hindsight what an incredibly remarkable turn of events in human history. The dawn of the era of natural/God given human rights.

It seems to me we might be in the twilight of the era of human rights. Now that the foundational concept of inalienable rights has been rejected by the ruling elites as well as the masses it is only a slow march backward to subjugation.

Not many who believe in inalienable rights can articulate why they believe such a thing and are doomed to give their rights up in exchange for a 'mess of pottage'. Seems everyone has their price.

  
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Scottish independence a possibility
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2014, 11:34:42 AM »
None of the UK post-world wars can be compared to what came before. Entire generations of manhood were thrown into the meat grinders twice in short order, and they've never recovered.

Huh?

British casualties in the Second World War constituted 383,000 soldiers and 67,000 civilians, less than 1% of the population.

They nowhere near approached the scale of slaughter of the First World War, or the scale of casualties soaked up by the populations of other combatants. (France has lost 550,000 civilians and soldiers, Greece lost 340-820,000, etc.).

The problems Western civilization as a whole is suffering from (also replicated in far greater form in continental Europe, Australia, and Canada, and to a lesser extent in the US) are a cultural issue, not a demographic one.

For comparison's sake,

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