Author Topic: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing  (Read 1619 times)

RevDisk

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Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« on: October 03, 2014, 09:17:11 AM »

Thought some of the aviation buffs might be interested.

http://raider.sikorsky.com/index.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-97_Raider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iWlLJm3v9s

They did their big unveil yesterday and expect to start flight testing soon.

It's built to go fast. Not haul a lot of stuff, but it can fit 6 people in the cabin. I'm sure SOCOM will want some, maybe stealthed, maybe not. But I don't see it likely to replace the MD-500 for special operations. An MH-6 Little Bird is between one and two million depending on packages, this is going to be at least $15 million depending on package options. S-97 is going to have higher maintenance requirements than the MH-6 as well. It only carries two more people but admittedly has nearly three times the range and about twice the top speed.

It'd be useful for CSAR and special operations. Maybe a civvie version as a toy for the ultra rich. But I don't see a very wide customer base. Regular utility Blackhawk is a fourth of the price, MH-60 is one fifthteenth the price.
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Scout26

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2014, 09:32:44 AM »
And moving away from Tribal Names as well.  A pity that is.   It brought up many interesting discussions and some internet research here on the Apache, Blackhawk, Iroquois and Kiowa tribes.
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MillCreek

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2014, 10:05:38 AM »
Wow, coaxial rotors to eliminate the tail rotors.  Just like the Kamovs.
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birdman

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2014, 10:12:53 AM »
Wow, coaxial rotors to eliminate the tail rotors.  Just like the Kamovs.

Allows for slower rotor speed to prevent transonic tips, and also counter-acts the trailing blade loss of lift.
Toss in a pusher prop (which it has) and you get a fast as balls helo.

While expensive, its got better legs and nearly 1.5x the speed of an MH-6 (or MH-60) and for its intended use, that is key, the less time you spend in hostile areas, the less chance of being dead.

TommyGunn

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2014, 01:13:54 PM »
Holy Airwolf, Batman!

Nasty looking beasties, these S-97s.   Co-ax rotors!  Pusher prop!   276 MPH top speed.  
Now THAT'S fast!

Nice to know the good ol' U.S. of A. can still do something...... ;)
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Ben

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2014, 01:41:12 PM »
But I don't see it likely to replace the MD-500 for special operations.

Huh. I had no idea SOCOM used the MD-500 for their stuff. We had one for ocean surveys off ships. I flew in it once but didn't think it was all that or anything (at least to work out of, the pilots may have thought otherwise). I spent a good bit of time in contract Jet Rangers and Long Rangers doing offshore stuff for the Navy and liked them better.
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Scout26

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2014, 03:14:33 PM »
Be interesting to see the flight tests.  I wonder if the rotor-tip speed in flight might cause any issues/problems. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2014, 04:44:17 PM »
Is this trying to compete more with the V-22 Osprey?
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RevDisk

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2014, 05:27:56 PM »
And moving away from Tribal Names as well.  A pity that is.   It brought up many interesting discussions and some internet research here on the Apache, Blackhawk, Iroquois and Kiowa tribes.

Raider and S-97 are Sikorsky names, not US government designations. If adopted, it would be given a different designator such as MH-97.


Wow, coaxial rotors to eliminate the tail rotors.  Just like the Kamovs.

Yep. Coax rotors are not new. Sikorsky's marketing it as "whole is better than the sum of the parts", which is partly true. Toss in coax, with pusher, with fly by wire, with other stuff and it gets interesting.

There is/was/might be a version of this on the servers somewhere that's a bit scarier. Autonomous. I'm sure the details or project are classified but the concept isn't.


Allows for slower rotor speed to prevent transonic tips, and also counter-acts the trailing blade loss of lift.
Toss in a pusher prop (which it has) and you get a fast as balls helo.

While expensive, its got better legs and nearly 1.5x the speed of an MH-6 (or MH-60) and for its intended use, that is key, the less time you spend in hostile areas, the less chance of being dead.

Bingo. Conventional rotory aircraft have asymmetry of aerodynamic lift. Faster the rotors go, more of an issue. If you look closely, these rotors are rigid, which most are not.


Huh. I had no idea SOCOM used the MD-500 for their stuff. We had one for ocean surveys off ships. I flew in it once but didn't think it was all that or anything (at least to work out of, the pilots may have thought otherwise). I spent a good bit of time in contract Jet Rangers and Long Rangers doing offshore stuff for the Navy and liked them better.

160th owns 51, according to Wikipedia. And 72x MH-60M.  Civvie designation is MD-500 Defender, with different letter designators for different configurations. They're small, fast and cheap. Think Corvette of the sky.

Did you travel on the inside or outside the MD500?  Even without the doors, being inside is much more uncomfy than the benches.



Be interesting to see the flight tests.  I wonder if the rotor-tip speed in flight might cause any issues/problems. 

That is the main issue the aircraft is geared around. Hence the rigid rotors and coaxial configuration. There's a few other aspects you could figure out by very closely looking at the aircraft that most people could noodle out but might be considered ITAR technical data. Stupid, but that's US law. Unless it's public domain, restating certain technical information without a commodity jurisdiction ruling or an export permit can be an ITAR violation.

AFAIK, "X2 technology" is still in the middle of State Department wrangling. I used to be on the team that was doing said wrangling. Hopefully it will be declared not ITAR, but I doubt it. None of it is really revolutionary stuff.


Is this trying to compete more with the V-22 Osprey?

V-22 companion. V-22 is unarmed and a sitting duck against damn near anything. It has countermeasures (chaff, ECM), but no counterfire countermeasures (Say HAARM, or hell, a 20mm cannon). This could be used for scouting LZ's and providing covering fire.

V-22 essentially cannot realistically be armed with effective weapons. Only place is the tail gate.
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Tallpine

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2014, 05:43:16 PM »
Quote
V-22 essentially cannot realistically be armed with effective weapons. Only place is the tail gate.

You mean, without shooting yourself down  :lol:


"Rigid" rotors: but it still has cyclic and collective pitch, right  ???
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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2014, 06:05:54 PM »
Harrier should be the companion aircraft to the Osprey.


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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2014, 06:08:58 PM »

160th owns 51, according to Wikipedia. And 72x MH-60M.  Civvie designation is MD-500 Defender, with different letter designators for different configurations. They're small, fast and cheap. Think Corvette of the sky.

Did you travel on the inside or outside the MD500?  Even without the doors, being inside is much more uncomfy than the benches.
Inside. Yeah for a tall guy, even doors off, it resulted in not comfortable for the position I had to sit to do my thing. Jet Ranger was better, though the one I usually was in had an old bench seat that I guess they were too cheap to replace, so it was like sitting on a Catholic church bench. Long Ranger had a lot more leg room (obviously). Best rotary for observer work was the HH-65, since I always got the Gunner's seat there. Much less twisting around, and it saved on the after-flight Aleve for the kinked neck. :)
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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2014, 06:30:51 PM »
It'd be useful for CSAR and special operations.

I'm thinking remote mountain rescue, especially EPIRB response or delivering search teams; as long as you know where you're going, this thing is a solid 50-70mph faster than anything typically used for that.  That could be a huge difference if you've got to go 200 miles, pick up the victim(s) and deliver to an ER ASAP, or get boots on the ground to track ahead of a storm.

ETA: presumably the range/endurance numbers assume armed.  How much would it change from dropping the armament weight and using those pods for drop tanks and/or rescue hoists?

birdman

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2014, 11:06:05 AM »
You mean, without shooting yourself down  :lol:


"Rigid" rotors: but it still has cyclic and collective pitch, right  ???

Rigid just means no flapping/trail-lead hinge (tailored blade flex takes care of this), pitch of the blade is still present (as always).  It makes the rotor head have fewer parts (only one bearing on each blade is required for the pitch axis), and weigh less (better control)...important, when you have double the number of blades and rotor hubs.

birdman

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2014, 11:14:06 AM »
Be interesting to see the flight tests.  I wonder if the rotor-tip speed in flight might cause any issues/problems. 

Big advantage of variable speed main rotor, allows for control of tip speed to keep it subsonic on the leading side.  A non-coax helo with variable speed has to back down on rotor rpm to do so, which actually makes lift assymmetry worse (eg, fly sideways), requiring side-stick, and eventually, the trailing blade stalls out.  With a coax, no side-stick is required as the lift assymmetry balances out, which means lift can be maintained at faster speeds.

Marnoot

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2014, 12:01:52 PM »
I'm thinking remote mountain rescue, especially EPIRB response or delivering search teams

This, though I'm guessing the cost would be prohibitive for most state-level agencies. Something like this would be great for things like our state DPS. I think currently they have two Eurocopter AS350 B2 Astars, with one based in the Salt Lake valley, and the other in southern Utah. Problem being there's plenty of state in between the two helicopters. If an urgent rescue need comes up in central Utah, assuming cruising speeds the AS350 gets there in 1 hour, 20 minutes, while the S-97 could get there a half-hour earlier, which could make a big difference.

But again the price difference between an AS350 ($2M) and an S-97 ($15M) means it's probably a no go.

KD5NRH

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2014, 04:51:22 PM »
Quote
But again the price difference between an AS350 ($2M) and an S-97 ($15M) means it's probably a no go.

Give it time. Somebody will change their department colors, and suddenly all the equipment on the lot will be worn out and need replacing.  Happens here every time the police chief wants to change uniforms,  belts or car livery; it's promised to cost nothing because it will just be phased in as current equipment needs replacing,  then over the next six months, suddenly every uniform is damaged, all the cars develop serious problems, etc.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 12:35:12 PM by KD5NRH »

Perd Hapley

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Re: Sikorsky S-97 is about to begin flight testing
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2014, 06:58:00 PM »
Be interesting to see the flight tests.   

Here's something similar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pag7fSgoiz0
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