Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...

[Perd Hapley]

I wasn't thinking when I posted it, my apologies, and it's been edited.


I'm not saying that churches have to like it.  Maybe they should fight for full and total freedom that might allow them the ability to operate fully free of government interference and coercement.  And I'm glad they have dug in their heels on the issue.
And I'm saying that churches can exist without government involvement.  Taking the money out of the equation is a big step. 

I'm sure there are some that are. My church is doing all it can just to keep the 'lectric bill paid up.

I've edited my post, as well.

[MillCreek]

  Come see the baptists iherent in the system!

Of course I had to read that in a Monty Python voice.

[roo_ster]

Of course I had to read that in a Monty Python voice.

I had half a skit going in my head with Michael Palin going on as a Unitarian-Universalist complaining about the oppression of folk with orthodoxy and creeds and all, but it just sort of trailed off into meaninglessness...

[Stand_watie]

Halp halp the baptists are oppressing me!

I guess i was oppressed the other day after church at sams.  Tried to buy some beer and it would not ring up.  Come see the baptists iherent in the system!

Ftr i doubt baptists have enough clout to pass such laws on their own.

When I lived in West Michigan, there were (at least apocryphally) municipalities that would allow service of liquor in a resturaunt on sunday, but not beer. We (non-Dutch) liked to joke that the Christian Reformed didn't want to drink with us Lutherans, Baptists and Catholics on Sundays.

[Perd Hapley]

I think a lot of people would understand the church/state issue better, if they applied fistful's patented Separation of Church and State, Not Belief and State formula. In other words, church/state separation is meant to apply to the church and state as institutions; but not as a firewall sealing off the religious beliefs of individuals from having any effect on our government, or the way we vote. Obviously, our views on politics, law, government are the result of our religious beliefs, our philosophies, our interests, our principles, etc.

Viewed from this perspective, those insidious, blue-law Baptists are only as menacing as every other advocacy group pushing burdensome regulations. If the churches encourage individual voters to restrict access to liquor, that's their right, just like everyone else has a right to push for their own agenda.

Edited.

[Stand_watie]

I think a lot of people would understand the church/state issue better, if they applied fistful's patented Separation of Church and State, Not Belief and State formula. In other words, church/state separation is meant to apply to the church and state as institutions; but not as a firewall sealing off the religious beliefs of individuals from having any effect on our government, or the way we vote. Obviously, our views on politics, law, government are the result of our religious beliefs, our philosophies, our interests, our principles, etc.

Viewed from this perspective, those insidious, blue-law Baptists are only as menacing as every other advocacy group. If the churches encourage individual voters to restrict access to liquor, that's their right, just like everyone else has a right to push for their own agenda.

Surprisingly to me, the Mennonites in my community in Texas were opposing a blue law repeal of banning alcohol sales, a few years ago.

[Scout26]

I had half a skit going in my head with Michael Palin going on as a Unitarian-Universalist complaining about the oppression of folk with orthodoxy and creeds and all, but it just sort of trailed off into meaninglessness...

[Strings]

Wow... I actually agree with Fistful on a topic involving religion. Thinking everybody should bundle up: Hell just froze over

I do feel it necessary to point something out: "charitable works" are not needed for a church. Not saying they're a bad idea, just that "doing charitable works" isn't a necessary function to denote a church

[zxcvbob]

Wow... I actually agree with Fistful on a topic involving religion. Thinking everybody should bundle up: Hell just froze over

I do feel it necessary to point something out: "charitable works" are not needed for a church. Not saying they're a bad idea, just that "doing charitable works" isn't a necessary function to denote a church

I'm not so sure about that.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46  Jesus wasn't necessarily talking about the church (it didn't really exist yet) but I think the principle still applies.

Also see James's comments about faith without works.

[Strings]

"Church" doesn't mean "Christian church". Using it as "religious organization", regardless of religion

There ARE pagan churches

[Perd Hapley]

"Church" doesn't mean "Christian church". Using it as "religious organization", regardless of religion

There ARE pagan churches

Are there pagan hymnals?

Pagan parsonages?

Pagan pot-bless chili suppers?

How about pagan Sunday school?

Vacation pagan school in the summer?

[lee n. field]

Are there pagan hymnals?

Pagan parsonages?

Pagan pot-bless chili suppers?

How about pagan Sunday school?

Vacation pagan school in the summer?

Don't know, but I do know that there is a Spiritist church camp, about 40 miles from where I am.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Do Druids count? They had everything but the parsonage and hymnals.


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[roo_ster]

Do Druids count? They had everything but the parsonage and hymnals.


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Plus sacrificial victims' entrails draped on the oak trees like garlands.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

When I was in work release the rules allowed you to sign out for religious services and not have it count against regular furlough time. One enterprising guy found out the Druids had all day service on Sundays.dawn to dusk. All at once there were a bunch of converts


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[just Warren]

Pagan pot-bless chili suppers?

I heard of one in Boston. It was wicca-tasty according to attendees.

[cordex]

I heard of one in Boston. It was wicca-tasty according to attendees.

Even Tallpine is rolling his eyes at that one.

[Balog]

Sure, a church can exist easily without the governments hands in it.  But when you invite the devil to dinner so you can have tax free status, you agree to the devils menu.





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You're trying to make it sound like some greedy church grasping to avoid paying taxes. In order to function as a church legally in America, you have to incorporate as a 501(c) group. Might as well say you can't complain about gun control laws if you have a carry permit.

[Balog]

I'm sure if you try you can oppress someone this weekend before you need to make the casserole. 


To clarify, I'm not accusing any individual of oppression (yet).  But in the US, and especially in the South, the predominance of Baptist led to a lot of Baptists in office.  And as was indicated up thread that means you have a lot of folks making a lot of local laws.  Many of those end up being pseudo religious. For decades no one that mattered cared because if you had a problem with the blue laws, you obviously weren't "God Fearing Christian Folk" and your opinion didn't matter.  Kind of a passive aggressive oppression but oppression by the Baptists none the less. in the last 15-20 years it has slackened but it's still pretty obvious in small towns and counties throughout the Bible Belt.

Teetotaling as a social norm is directly unBiblical and a product of American culture. Albeit it frequently masquerades as a religious thing but it has zero to do with the actual text.

[zxcvbob]

The blue laws here in Minnesota are worse than in Texas, and there are *very* few Baptists here, Southern or otherwise.

[roo_ster]

Teetotaling as a social norm is directly unBiblical and a product of American culture. Albeit it frequently masquerades as a religious thing but it has zero to do with the actual text.

This. 

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”
----Martin Luther

[Stand_watie]

This. 

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”
----Martin Luther

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' 19"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' ...Jesus

"There's no pleasing some people!"
...Brian

"That's just what Jesus said, sir"
...Ex-leper

[dogmush]

I don't particularly care if it's biblical or not.  Y'all are welcome to argue over how is more true to your text till the cows come home.  My point was, and is, that the christian mainstream culture in this country, through sheer force of numbers, often legislates their opinion of their religion.  It is common at the local level.  It's also pretty annoying, even if it's little stuff, to non members of that particular religion.

You churchgoers can frett and pontificate on the biblical aspects of various laws, and weather the "Bless their heart" judgments from LE, county councils, and judges are good Christianity or bad, but it still has to be delt with on a daily basis by folks that don't need or want any of your help in their spirituality.

I'd say you don't even know how deeply your religion invades all aspects of your thinking, but the few Baptists in positions of authority I've talked to about it Self Righteously told me that they KNEW they were spreading the faith by law, and that it was good.  Which is why Baptists sit on the oppression list.  I'd bet money that if I spent more time in the upper midwest the Presbyterians would join them.


Now please proceed with telling me how the laws that I have witnessed, and the people who have told me they were using their county seat to enact or keep religious laws aren't real christians, don't follow the bible or some other crap that has no practical outcome on living with self righteous bible thumping aholes.

[Perd Hapley]

I don't particularly care if it's biblical or not.  Y'all are welcome to argue over how is more true to your text till the cows come home.  My point was, and is, that the christian mainstream culture in this country, through sheer force of numbers, often legislates their opinion of their religion.  It is common at the local level.  It's also pretty annoying, even if it's little stuff, to non members of that particular religion.

You churchgoers can frett and pontificate on the biblical aspects of various laws, and weather the "Bless their heart" judgments from LE, county councils, and judges are good Christianity or bad, but it still has to be delt with on a daily basis by folks that don't need or want any of your help in their spirituality.

I'd say you don't even know how deeply your religion invades all aspects of your thinking, but the few Baptists in positions of authority I've talked to about it Self Righteously told me that they KNEW they were spreading the faith by law, and that it was good.  Which is why Baptists sit on the oppression list.  I'd bet money that if I spent more time in the upper midwest the Presbyterians would join them.


Now please proceed with telling me how the laws that I have witnessed, and the people who have told me they were using their county seat to enact or keep religious laws aren't real christians, don't follow the bible or some other crap that has no practical outcome on living with self righteous bible thumping aholes.

Are you claiming that Christians are somehow more likely than other groups to favor intrusive government? If so, I think you will find that doesn't pan out.

[They] told me that they KNEW they were spreading the faith by law, and that it was good.

I've heard that, too. There's a lot of illogic going around in this country. A lot of wrongheadedness about how government should work, what a free country would look like, what the Bible really teaches, etc. I wish I knew how to reach those people, and show them the error of their ways. I'm pretty sure that berating Christians only makes them more likely to see non-Christians as the enemy. It makes them less likely to listen to arguments against blue laws, or the drug war.  

[dogmush]

Are you claiming that Christians are somehow more likely than other groups to favor intrusive government? If so, I think you will find that doesn't pan out.

No, I'm claiming that in the US Christians are more likely than other groups to have succeeded in religious based intrusive government.

I've heard that, too. There's a lot of illogic going around in this country. A lot of wrongheadedness about how government should work, what a free country would look like, what the Bible really teaches, etc. I wish I knew how to reach those people, and show them the error of their ways.

I'm pretty sure that berating Christians only makes them more likely to see non-Christians as the enemy

. It makes them less likely to listen to arguments against blue laws, or the drug war.  

Which is why, in general, I don't berate Christians.  In general, broad brush, even their pseudo-theocracies are freer and more to my style of living than other options available in the real world.  This started with Rooster saying he'd never felt oppressed.  I believe that he never has felt so, I just offered some differing experiences.  I even tried pretty hard to be polite and low key about it, and predictably enough I got the checklist of "Those aren't REAL oppressions" -> "Others are worse" -> "They aren't Good Christians anyway" ->"Well you shouldn't bash all Christians because some are mean".   It's like a small version of Larry Correia's SJW checklist.

I don't have anywhere near the problem with Christianity (in all it's schizophrenic incarnations) that I do with Islam as an institution.  But it remains true that in my actual life, as a non-Christian spiritual person, the only religion that has successfully used the power of government and the threat of force to make me conform with their [idea of] religion is followers of Christ.  Muslims have tried to kill me, but they've never sicced a Sheriff on me.  And as usual, other Christians either don't want to see it, or want to excuse it.

As I said earlier, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating we strap on the body armor and overthrow the Christian oppressors. It's not to the point of feeding you guys to the lions again.  But it is annoying, especially when it's poo-pooed, and it affects large blocks of the voting public.

So there you go, take it for what it's worth.

It's funny that I actually side with the pastors in this thread, they should tell the .gov to FOAD, when those very same mega-church pastors are the ones most likely to influance city hall into the laws I'm complaining about.