Author Topic: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...  (Read 19667 times)

KD5NRH

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2014, 12:53:07 PM »
I didn't think there was any obligation to keep religion from influencing govt mandates.  That would be silly.  There is no way to prevent that.  Our laws have traditionally been full of things "influenced by religion".  The goal is to keep Govt out of the Churchs, not necessarily to keep Church people out of Govt.

Hence "unduly influenced."  As in, no particular church directly dictates governmental policy.

MechAg94

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2014, 02:36:38 PM »
Hence "unduly influenced."  As in, no particular church directly dictates governmental policy.
Not really.  If 75% of voters were suddenly Southern Baptist, there is nothing stopping them all from voting in Southern Baptist candidates or ideas.  What they cannot do is establish Southern Baptist as an official religion/denomination or oppress other religions/denominations.

I may be defining "unduly influenced" differently than you are though. 
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KD5NRH

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2014, 02:41:00 PM »
Not really.  If 75% of voters were suddenly Southern Baptist, there is nothing stopping them all from voting in Southern Baptist candidates or ideas.  What they cannot do is establish Southern Baptist as an official religion/denomination or oppress other religions/denominations.

Not oppressing other denominations pretty much eliminates all Southern Baptist ideas, so that wouldn't work out very well with Constitutional limitations.

Of course, a solid 75% of voters in agreement on anything could force a Constitutional Convention and rewrite the whole darn thing if they put their minds to it.

roo_ster

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2014, 02:45:43 PM »
Not oppressing other denominations pretty much eliminates all Southern Baptist ideas, so that wouldn't work out very well with Constitutional limitations.

Of course, a solid 75% of voters in agreement on anything could force a Constitutional Convention and rewrite the whole darn thing if they put their minds to it.

Oddly, I have never felt or been oppressed by S Baptists or their ideas.  I have debated them where their tradition or doctrine is in conflict, but that is hardly oppression.
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roo_ster

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dogmush

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2014, 03:00:43 PM »
Oddly, I have never felt or been oppressed by S Baptists or their ideas.  I have debated them where their tradition or doctrine is in conflict, but that is hardly oppression.

Visit the South and try to buy a case of beer on the way to watch football at a friends house some Sunday......

KD5NRH

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2014, 03:02:30 PM »
Visit the South and try to buy a case of beer on the way to watch football at a friends house some Sunday......

Most places around here, you can get the beer, but not hard liquor.

dogmush

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2014, 03:04:51 PM »
In FL it varies by county and I don't even try to keep track.

The Southern Baptists (today) come closer than any other denomination I have come across to oppression through color of law.   

zxcvbob

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2014, 03:10:25 PM »
In FL it varies by county and I don't even try to keep track.

The Southern Baptists (today) come closer than any other denomination I have come across to oppression through color of law.   

I must not be doing it right then.  I don't think I've oppressed anybody in... dang, it's been a long time.   =|
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2014, 03:18:37 PM »
Most places around here, you can get the beer, but not hard liquor.

Not here. All of Texas beer sales are prohibited on Sunday before noon.



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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2014, 03:20:49 PM »
If I still drank living in va would suck


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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KD5NRH

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2014, 03:23:52 PM »
Not here. All of Texas beer sales are prohibited on Sunday before noon.

Never tried before noon.  If you can't get through church without a beer, get a new preacher.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2014, 03:39:08 PM »
Never tried before noon.  If you can't get through church without a beer, get a new preacher.

Yeah then there's religions that practice Saturday as the sabbath, don't recognize the sabbath at all, and don't forget the atheists like me.
Liquor laws like that are a prime example of the hypocrisy of this whole thing.



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JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

KD5NRH

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2014, 03:47:56 PM »
Yeah then there's religions that practice Saturday as the sabbath, don't recognize the sabbath at all, and don't forget the atheists like me.

Clearly, atheists need something to do on Sunday mornings.  Maybe you could go sit in an empty, undecorated room and listen to nothing for a couple hours?

dogmush

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2014, 04:03:41 PM »
I must not be doing it right then.  I don't think I've oppressed anybody in... dang, it's been a long time.   =|

I'm sure if you try you can oppress someone this weekend before you need to make the casserole.  =D


To clarify, I'm not accusing any individual of oppression (yet).  But in the US, and especially in the South, the predominance of Baptist led to a lot of Baptists in office.  And as was indicated up thread that means you have a lot of folks making a lot of local laws.  Many of those end up being pseudo religious. For decades no one that mattered cared because if you had a problem with the blue laws, you obviously weren't "God Fearing Christian Folk" and your opinion didn't matter.  Kind of a passive aggressive oppression but oppression by the Baptists none the less. in the last 15-20 years it has slackened but it's still pretty obvious in small towns and counties throughout the Bible Belt.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2014, 04:10:17 PM »
It's an vague line between local folks deciding local laws and oppression. Depends where you stand


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Jamisjockey

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2014, 04:20:12 PM »
I'm sure if you try you can oppress someone this weekend before you need to make the casserole.  =D


To clarify, I'm not accusing any individual of oppression (yet).  But in the US, and especially in the South, the predominance of Baptist led to a lot of Baptists in office.  And as was indicated up thread that means you have a lot of folks making a lot of local laws.  Many of those end up being pseudo religious. For decades no one that mattered cared because if you had a problem with the blue laws, you obviously weren't "God Fearing Christian Folk" and your opinion didn't matter.  Kind of a passive aggressive oppression but oppression by the Baptists none the less. in the last 15-20 years it has slackened but it's still pretty obvious in small towns and counties throughout the Bible Belt.

Truth.
When pastors and religious groups actively seek to uphold or enact laws that limit my freedom, they're going to find me giving less of a deuce that they find themselves being oppressed.



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MechAg94

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2014, 04:23:58 PM »
Yeah, I am really sure atheists wouldn't oppress anyone at all if given the chance.   ;/

Imagine all the forgetful Sunday morning fishermen who can't get drunk because they forgot to buy on Saturday.  What would fishing be if you had to do it sober?  
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MechAg94

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2014, 04:33:18 PM »
I am pretty sure many local and state governments had similar laws you might find oppressive in 1776.  This nation has never been a libertarian paradise. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2014, 04:38:09 PM »
Yeah, I am really sure atheists wouldn't oppress anyone at all if given the chance.   ;/

Imagine all the forgetful Sunday morning fishermen who can't get drunk because they forgot to buy on Saturday.  What would fishing be if you had to do it sober?  

True, the Blue laws are not that egregious.  Mind you it's still BS that myself and another adult can not complete a otherwise legal transaction because of an uninterested third parties church, but it doesn't really rise to torches and pitchforks.

However, due in large part to the "anti-god influence of media" several Baptist churches got together and got the small town in North FL my cousin lives in to strengthen their public decency laws.  "Too many of those dang Goths" were coming over from JAX. (No seriously, that's what her pastor said).  As a result I've seen my cousin's 14YO daughter stopped by police on the sidewalk outside her school to measure the length of her volleyball shorts.  Churches drafted the law, churches pushed it before the city council, church members voted it in, and church members with guns enforce it regardless of your religious affiliation.  Seems I've heard of another major religion that makes laws if their women show to much skin........hmmmm.

It's a small, predominantly white, rural town in FL.  Even if it does bother people, it won't get enough traction to get a lawsuit, or even a news story.  But it happens still.

Like I said, I'm not trying to bash any one religion or any one believer.  But Christians, especially Baptists in the south, still have a stranglehold on our culture that is sometimes hard to see from inside the church.  It's a fact of life in America.

dogmush

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2014, 04:39:46 PM »
I am pretty sure many local and state governments had similar laws you might find oppressive in 1776.  This nation has never been a libertarian paradise. 

Also true.  which is why I don't actually worry much about the oppression.  In aggregate, oppression and all, the US, and especially the southern US is a pretty free and wonderful place to live.  But that doesn't make me blind to it's issues.

roo_ster

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Halp halp the baptists are oppressing me!

I guess i was oppressed the other day after church at sams.  Tried to buy some beer and it would not ring up.  Come see the baptists iherent in the system!

Ftr i doubt baptists have enough clout to pass such laws on their own.
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roo_ster

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2014, 05:54:45 PM »
Soft tyranny is still tyranny.  And when you break the soft tyranny laws, they still use the threat of force to enforce them.


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Ron

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2014, 06:40:55 PM »
Soft tyranny is still tyranny.  And when you break the soft tyranny laws, they still use the threat of force to enforce them.


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Want to see tyranny? Wait till the last vestiges of cultural Christianity are purged from our institutions and replaced with progressives and statists.  

They are the ones who have no philosophical constraints on using government power to mold the new American human world citizen. They deny natural rights exist and many reject human free will also. It's kind of hard to square their philosophical circle with our square constitution.

You might reject Christianity but the circle of friends who believe in those two principles of liberty shrinks enormously without us Christians.

Should be interesting to watch if the USA doesn't self immolate first.

In answer to fistfuls question regarding corporations. We will have to play it out as it is till the end. There is no escape from Leviathan now, that deal was sealed long ago. Government and religion yoked up a long time ago and government is in the drivers seat. There is no alternative in our system other than going underground. All we can do is try and keep what liberty we have until it is taken away. Once it is taken away we go underground. Not the first choice but Christianity does fine underground.


« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 06:44:20 PM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Ron

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #98 on: October 17, 2014, 06:50:30 PM »
The soft tyranny comment reminded me of the CS Lewis quote

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - CS Lewis


I'm sorry, but to me I would say that the progressives fit the above description of moral busybodies much better than modern cultural Christianity.  
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Houston orders pastors to hand over sermons and private communications...
« Reply #99 on: October 17, 2014, 06:53:43 PM »
And yet, Christian groups continue to attack the moral freedoms others would like to enjoy.
Done with this one.
Ya'll keep it civil though.



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JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”