Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays

[charby]

Well, yeah.  One reason it is important to elevate decent folk with orthodox doctrine to leadership, what with half the folk being of below median intelligence.  Those with spare IQ points and an interest have more responsibility than your average parishioner.  Maybe that is why many churches have boards of Elders and the like.

Tell me again what proportion of college sophomores in favor of legalizing weed can trace the pro-weed arguments back through the literature of political philosophy and provide a coherent philosophical argument for their position?

The more I study science, especially biology the less I see god, I'm on the edge of saying hell with any religion that has deities.

[Balog]

The more I study science, especially biology the less I see god, I'm on the edge of saying hell with any religion that has deities.

That's funny, the microbiologists I know find the incredible complexity of even uni-cellular organisms to be one of the most solid arguments for a Creator. It's interesting having two respected research scientists on our board of elders.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

This guy is like that. Interesting man
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins


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[Perd Hapley]

Here’s a serious question for those of you in the thread that believe that the churches views on homosexuality cannot change because the bible doesn’t change.  How can you square that with the changes in religious doctrine over time?  Christianity (in general) has evolved.  As an example, churches used to kill witches and justified slavery, and those views changed 180 degrees just in the history of this country.  Different denominations use the same book but come to different conclusions on issues as fundamental as baptism and original sin.  So isn’t it inaccurate to say the book means the same thing to everybody today as it did to people a couple centuries ago?

I expect the "gay marriage" silliness will follow after the witch-burning, and the positive good notions of slavery. I give it, at most, a few generations before it's as credible as those 1950s cigarette ads.

On the slavery deal, it's interesting that so many people have learned that the Bible sentences black people to slavery, through the "curse of Ham." Interesting because there is no curse on Ham. 

[zxcvbob]

I expect the "gay marriage" silliness will follow after the witch-burning, and the positive good notions of slavery. I give it, at most, a few generations before it's as credible as those 1950s cigarette ads.

On the slavery deal, it's interesting that so many people have learned that the Bible sentences black people to slavery, through the "curse of Ham." Interesting because there is no curse on Ham. 

Or the "mark of Cain"  (all of Cain's descendants died a *long* time ago)

[charby]

That's funny, the microbiologists I know find the incredible complexity of even uni-cellular organisms to be one of the most solid arguments for a Creator. It's interesting having two respected research scientists on our board of elders.

The evolution of chemicals into proteins into unicellular wee beasties is what causes me to question is there really a deity. Also how our planet's water (universal solvent of life) is from extraterrestrial origins.

[Ron]

The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And l Ron Hubbard proves some folks will believe anything


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[brimic]

That's funny, the microbiologists I know find the incredible complexity of even uni-cellular organisms to be one of the most solid arguments for a Creator. It's interesting having two respected research scientists on our board of elders.

That.

[Scout26]

That's funny, the microbiologists I know find the incredible complexity of even uni-cellular organisms to be one of the most solid arguments for a Creator. It's interesting having two respected research scientists on our board of elders.

I know several Nuclearphysicists that woek at Fermi Lab.  We've had several interesting discussions regarding G-d and the creation of the Universe and matter.  To a man they all agree that there must have been some intelligent design given the way the universe works and their discoveries.

[makattak]

The more I study science, especially biology the less I see god, I'm on the edge of saying hell with any religion that has deities.

A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
In fearless youth we tempt the heights of Arts ;
While from the bounded level of our mind
Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind,
But, more advanced, behold with strange surprise
New distant scenes of endless science rise !
So pleased at first the towering Alps we try,
Mount o’er the vales, and seem to tread the sky ;
The eternal snows appear already past,
And the first clouds and mountains seem the last ;
But those attained, we tremble to survey
The growing labours of the lengthened way ;
The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
Hill peep o’er hills, and Alps on Alps arise !

[MechAg94]

The evolution of chemicals into proteins into unicellular wee beasties is what causes me to question is there really a deity. Also how our planet's water (universal solvent of life) is from extraterrestrial origins.

That is some of the part where i diverge from the Evolution as Origin idea.  There is a point at which it can't be proven any more than any other origin idea and simply becomes a belief.  I think I have come across as many Evolution believers who refuse to question their beliefs as Creation believers. Personally, I think it falls into the arena that if you don't believe in something, you will believe in anything.  Those who give up on faith generally end up believing in something else even if it isn't a deity. 

Regarding your statement above, according to all stuff I have seen about the formation of the Solar System, the entire Earth was from extraterrestial origins, not just the water.  It just depends on the perspective you take.  I would say the opposite of your statement though.  The more I see about advanced biology and physics, the more amazing complexity I see that is unexplained by any modern origin ideas.

[MillCreek]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/10/28/pope-francis-evolution-big-bang/18053509/

And now the Pope says that evolution and the Big Bang Theory does not contradict the existence of God.

[Balog]

I know several Nuclearphysicists that woek at Fermi Lab.  We've had several interesting discussions regarding G-d and the creation of the Universe and matter.  To a man they all agree that there must have been some intelligent design given the way the universe works and their discoveries.

Actually a surprisingly common attitude among many scientists, but not one that many people are willing to publicly admit due to the groupthink and censure of badthought among academia.

[Balog]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/10/28/pope-francis-evolution-big-bang/18053509/

And now the Pope says that evolution and the Big Bang Theory does not contradict the existence of God.

That's been Catholic doctrine since the 1960's or a bit earlier. It also does not endorse those views, merely states that they are not heretical and incompatible with the faith.

[griz]

Er, no.  That would be the state doing the executing.  Those executed by the Spanish Inquisition were killed on the authority of the Spanish sovereign.  Same thing with the Inquisition in the other countries (Spain was special).  In general, the Church has not claimed secular authority, given that God said he would appoint such folk to wield his sword for him, thanks all the same.  The agglomeration of secular authority to the person of the Pope WRT the Papal States was a Rather Big Deal during the Reformation and later. 

[Wow, maybe some folk, later on in history, could go to some effort to limit the power of the state to establish a church within its bounds to help prevent just such a thing from happening?  While still allowing the unfettered exercise thereof?  We ought to get on that...]

The RC Church allows for its college of cardinals and whatnot to change some of their doctrine over time.  That authority to change doctrine being a part of their doctrine.  But believe you me, it is not done willy-nilly.  They had councils working issues for DECADES trying to figure out what they doctrine should be on issues we may think trivial.  Give the RC Church credit for doing their homework.

Other denominations, not so much.  Meaning, they are scripture alone and everything at odds with scripture is bunk.  Or some denominations have no fixed theology (liberal theology & such) and pretty much no longer qualify as small-O orthodox Christianity.  Others take on as Canon extra-Biblical materials and spin off into non-Christianity in their own, unique fashion.  Others just sort of universalize themselves out of any meaningful doctrine.

Small-O orthodox Christianity has been steady at it for a long while.  All one has to do is break open works written by the early church fathers to see this.  Augustine is a great place for early orthodoxy.  In the middle ages, bust out some Aquinas.  Renaissance/Reformation?  Luther.  And so on up to orthodox Christianity today.  I am not a Baptist my own self, but WA Criswell can not be described as other than orthodox (if you want a contemporary example readily available for perusal).

Indeed.

OK, you are right.  It was the State, not the church, that executed them, even if the state at the time of the witch trials was very closely tied to the church.  But my point was that the views of the church do change.  In this example, 400 years ago capital punishment was backed (not carried out) by most or all churches.  Today I would guess that most churches oppose it.  The words in the bible are still the same, it's our culture's interpretation of it that has changed.  That's why I think the churches views on acceptance of homosexuality will drift over to the side of acceptance.

[Balog]

OK, you are right.  It was the State, not the church, that executed them, even if the state at the time of the witch trials was very closely tied to the church.  But my point was that the views of the church do change.  In this example, 400 years ago capital punishment was backed (not carried out) by most or all churches.  Today I would guess that most churches oppose it.  The words in the bible are still the same, it's our culture's interpretation of it that has changed.  That's why I think the churches views on acceptance of homosexuality will drift over to the side of acceptance.

There are plenty of issues where there is no direct Biblical guidance, and there are even (gasp) lots of things that are not objectively "right" or "wrong" and thus opinions on them change over time. There are also a great number of secondary and tertiary issues that folks can disagree over without crossing from orthodoxy into heresy.

Sexual immorality being wrong is not one of those issues. It is clearly spelled out as wrong, and the only way to avoid that teaching is to have a low view of Scripture. I don't personally believe that someone who views the Bible as a collection of fairy tales that one can draw warm fuzzy life lessons from (and just ignore anything you don't like) as legitimate members of the Christian faith, any more than I am a Buddhist because I think some of their koans make good points.

[KD5NRH]

I don't personally believe that someone who views the Bible as a collection of fairy tales that one can draw warm fuzzy life lessons from (and just ignore anything you don't like) as legitimate members of the Christian faith, any more than I am a Buddhist because I think some of their koans make good points.

And therein lies a large part of the problem; a good number of churches identify themselves as Christian while ignoring or very creatively interpreting large swaths of Scripture.

[roo_ster]

OK, you are right.  It was the State, not the church, that executed them, even if the state at the time of the witch trials was very closely tied to the church.  But my point was that the views of the church do change.  In this example, 400 years ago capital punishment was backed (not carried out) by most or all churches.  Today I would guess that most churches oppose it.  The words in the bible are still the same, it's our culture's interpretation of it that has changed.  That's why I think the churches views on acceptance of homosexuality will drift over to the side of acceptance.

Again, not so much. 

I know that the LCMS views capital punishment as a legitimate power of gov't, as does the largest Christian denomination on earth, the RC Church.

I must ask: Do you spend much time with Christians?  Have you spent any significant time in Christian churches?  Have you studied the Bible and Christian history?

RC Catechism:
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#

LCMS:
http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=549

S Baptists:
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/299

[Balog]

In fairness, if all I knew about what it means to be a Christian was from nominal cultural christians or adherents to mainline "Protestant" denominations I'd probably be experiencing the same confusion.

[griz]

Again, not so much. 

I know that the LCMS views capital punishment as a legitimate power of gov't, as does the largest Christian denomination on earth, the RC Church.

I must ask: Do you spend much time with Christians?  Have you spent any significant time in Christian churches?  Have you studied the Bible and Christian history?

RC Catechism:
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#

LCMS:
http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=549

S Baptists:
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/299

Yes, I would guess more than half the people I know are Christians.  I was raised in a Methodist household, but have not studied enough to consider myself anything close to a scholar on the matter.  I am not a member of any church but attend on occasion.

That said, I must be talking to different Christians than you are.  The General Board of the American Baptist Churches opposes it http://www.abc-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Capital-Punishment.pdf,

the Pope (at the time) said "I renew the appeal I made . . . for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary" Link: http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/death-penalty-capital-punishment/catholic-campaign-to-end-the-use-of-the-death-penalty.cfm,

the Church of Christ http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/1999uccgs22abolishdeathpen.pdf,

Methodist http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=6385,

and Presbyterian churches http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/101/capital-punishment/

all oppose it.

Those, and others I haven't listed, are the positions those churches have taken, aren't they?

[makattak]

Yes, I would guess more than half the people I know are Christians.  I was raised in a Methodist household, but have not studied enough to consider myself anything close to a scholar on the matter.  I am not a member of any church but attend on occasion.

That said, I must be talking to different Christians than you are.  The General Board of the American Baptist Churches opposes it http://www.abc-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Capital-Punishment.pdf,

the Pope (at the time) said "I renew the appeal I made . . . for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary" Link: http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/death-penalty-capital-punishment/catholic-campaign-to-end-the-use-of-the-death-penalty.cfm,

the Church of Christ http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/1999uccgs22abolishdeathpen.pdf,

Methodist http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=6385,

and Presbyterian churches http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/101/capital-punishment/

all oppose it.

Those, and others I haven't listed, are the positions those churches have taken, aren't they?

In fairness, if all I knew about what it means to be a Christian was from nominal cultural christians or adherents to mainline "Protestant" denominations I'd probably be experiencing the same confusion.

[griz]

Care to elaborate, or is this just saying I am not religious enough to understand?

[Angel Eyes]

and Presbyterian churches http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/101/capital-punishment/

all oppose it.

A bit of topic drift: I noted the Presbyterian church's position on gun control:

http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/101/gun-control/

[Balog]

Care to elaborate, or is this just saying I am not religious enough to understand?

Church of Christ (depending on which flavor you are talking about) is not really an orthodox Christian organization, and the Methodists and Presbyterians are the mainline denominations I was referring to, which are largely populated by people who do not actually believe the Bible is anything but a bunch of pleasant fairy tales that can inspire us to more social justice.