Author Topic: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays  (Read 17080 times)

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2014, 04:51:28 PM »
Uh, yeah, what Balog & mak wrote.

Care to elaborate, or is this just saying I am not religious enough to understand?

You don't have to have a drop of religious conviction to understand.  Understanding human nature can come in handy, though.

The underlying problem of the mainline churches cannot be solved by new programs of church development alone. That problem is the weakening of the spiritual conviction required to generate the enthusiasm and energy needed to sustain a vigorous communal life. Somehow, in the course of the past century, these churches lost the will or the ability to teach the Christian faith and what it requires to a succession of younger cohorts in such a way as to command their allegiance. Admittedly, doing so has become increasingly difficult for churches as close to the very center of American culture and institutional life as the mainline denominations are. The challenges posed to Christianity by various secular ideologies and moral systems have been truly formidable in recent times. Mainline Protestants in general and Presbyterians in particular are well educated. Many of their forebears read such authors as Darwin, H. L. Mencken, and Aldous Huxley. In response to the currents of modernity, denominational leaders promoted ecumenism and dialogue, but they did not devise or promote compelling new versions of a distinctively Christian faith. They did not fashion or preach a vigorous apologetics.

To put it another way, the USMC's adherents have much greater enthusiasm because, not despite, the USMC requiring more commitment and conviction than, say, do the Elks or the Rotary Club.  And the USMC is willing to back it up with action and unabashed apologetics.

Mainline prot denoms with liberal theology have just about changed their views such that there is no need for them.  A sign on the front door reading "Vote for social justice as defined this week." sums up their theology.

Martin Luther: "Here I am, I can do no other."(1)
Mainline Prot Minister: "Here I am, but I can move elsewhere if my position in any way causes you to be uncomfortable or my position is such that I may take incoming fire from the ruling class."

How is someone in the pews supposed to have any enthusiasm or hold any conviction if the guy behind the pulpit is a mealy-mouthed sack "meh" with no conviction?

========

And the Pope, while the leader of the RC Church, is not the sole arbiter of RC doctrine.  It takes years & years to work through such issues through a maze of canon lawyers, bishops, councils, and cardinals.  If it is in the RC Catechism, a RC can be pretty confident it is doctrine.






(1) Somewhat apocryphal, but still useful.  A more accurate rendering and context: "Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Holy Scriptures or by evident reason-for I can believe neither pope nor councils alone, as it is clear that they have erred repeatedly and contradicted themselves-I consider myself convicted by the testimony of Holy Scripture, which is my basis; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Thus I cannot and will not recant, because acting against one's conscience is neither safe nor sound. God help me. Amen."  Just as strong, more precise, but rendering the same sentiment.

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,742
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2014, 04:52:10 PM »
There are plenty of issues where there is no direct Biblical guidance, and there are even (gasp) lots of things that are not objectively "right" or "wrong" and thus opinions on them change over time. There are also a great number of secondary and tertiary issues that folks can disagree over without crossing from orthodoxy into heresy.

Sexual immorality being wrong is not one of those issues. It is clearly spelled out as wrong, and the only way to avoid that teaching is to have a low view of Scripture. I don't personally believe that someone who views the Bible as a collection of fairy tales that one can draw warm fuzzy life lessons from (and just ignore anything you don't like) as legitimate members of the Christian faith, any more than I am a Buddhist because I think some of their koans make good points.
I heard a guest preacher who was pretty good who talked about homosexual marriage.  He didn't have much issue with the general idea (tolerance, not acceptance) since heterosexuals have been living in sin and screwing around outside of marriage for years and no one is upset.  He was only concerned about being forced to marry homosexuals and said he would refuse and go to prison if forced.  Given that common law marriange is allowed in court in Texas, I am sort of surprised it hasn't been claimed by homosexual couples already.  
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 04:55:46 PM by MechAg94 »
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,000
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2014, 06:02:28 PM »
Care to elaborate, or is this just saying I am not religious enough to understand?

As we can see from the same small group of certain members here, unless you follow a particular brand of Christianity, you are not a Christian.  According to them. 
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

griz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,042
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2014, 06:02:28 PM »
OK, I thought what the Pope said would have some sway with their doctrine, but that's not my call.  I did think, since the thread is about Baptist beliefs, that their clear stance against capital punishment would make my point that beliefs change.  At at any rate, you are still free to believe the word, and meaning, doesn't change.  I'll move along.
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2014, 06:11:39 PM »
OK, I thought what the Pope said would have some sway with their doctrine, but that's not my call.  I did think, since the thread is about Baptist beliefs, that their clear stance against capital punishment would make my point that beliefs change.  At at any rate, you are still free to believe the word, and meaning, doesn't change.  I'll move along.

Capital punishment is not an explicitly Biblical principle, so yes it changes over time.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2014, 06:13:50 PM »
As we can see from the same small group of certain members here, unless you follow a particular brand of Christianity, you are not a Christian.  According to them. 

I'm honestly curious: how do you define who is and is not a Christian? Is merely self-describing as "Christian" enough, even though Christianity is generally agreed on as a mono-theistic religion and there are avowed atheists who self-describe that way? Not being argumentative, I just literally don't understand the objection to saying "A member of Religion X is someone who believes the central tenets of Religion X."
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

lee n. field

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,575
  • tinpot megalomaniac, Paulbot, hardware goon
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2014, 06:46:43 PM »
A bit of topic drift: I noted the Presbyterian church's position on gun control:

http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/101/gun-control/


PINOs, and not the only Presbyterians.   
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Angel Eyes

  • Lying dog-faced pony soldier
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,310
  • You're not diggin'
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2014, 07:10:07 PM »
PINOs, and not the only Presbyterians.   

Yes, a Presbyterian friend of mine pointed that out after I posted it.  Apparently, PC U.S.A. is pretty out there compared to other Presbyterians.
"End of quote.  Repeat the line."
  - Joe 'Ron Burgundy' Biden

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,263
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2014, 07:12:02 PM »
Interesting because there is no curse on Ham.  :laugh:

Then why did God turn him into bacon?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2014, 07:15:14 PM »
Then why did God turn him into bacon?

I'm pretty sure equating ham and bacon is blasphemy.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

lee n. field

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,575
  • tinpot megalomaniac, Paulbot, hardware goon
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2014, 07:22:37 PM »
Yes, a Presbyterian friend of mine pointed that out after I posted it.  Apparently, PC U.S.A. is pretty out there compared to other Presbyterians.


Other Presbyterian groups tend to be much smaller.  The history is complicated.  
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,409
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2014, 07:26:03 PM »
I'm pretty sure that turning ham into bacon is a beatification, and not a curse.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,263
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2014, 07:28:59 PM »
Capital punishment is not an explicitly Biblical principle, so yes it changes over time.

It is an Old Testament principle. "An eye for an eye" is one of the Old Testament principles that were deemed to have been replaced by Jesus' teachings and are enshrined in the New Testament.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,263
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2014, 07:30:56 PM »
I'm honestly curious: how do you define who is and is not a Christian? Is merely self-describing as "Christian" enough, even though Christianity is generally agreed on as a mono-theistic religion and there are avowed atheists who self-describe that way?

I have never encountered nor have I ever heard of any atheist who self-describes as Christian.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,409
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2014, 07:33:30 PM »
Quote
I'm honestly curious: how do you define who is and is not a Christian? Is merely self-describing as "Christian" enough, even though Christianity is generally agreed on as a mono-theistic religion and there are avowed atheists who self-describe that way? Not being argumentative, I just literally don't understand the objection to saying "A member of Religion X is someone who believes the central tenets of Religion X."


With a slight modification, I concur with this question.

"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2014, 07:41:13 PM »
I have never encountered nor have I ever heard of any atheist who self-describes as Christian.

The head of one of the branches of one of the mainline denominations is (or was, I guess she may have retired by now) a lesbian who refused to profess a belief in a supernatural "god" of any sort.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,409
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2014, 07:48:13 PM »
The head of one of the branches of one of the mainline denominations is (or was, I guess she may have retired by now) a lesbian who refused to profess a belief in a supernatural "god" of any sort.


If she "changed" her "gender" to male, you would have to acknowledge that she is a male. Or you are a big meanie. You must call her what she pretends to be; not what she is.

In the same way, when a non-believer claims to be a Christian, you are a big meanie, to say otherwise. You must call her what she pretends to be; not what she is.


Had to steal this from elsewhere, as it says so much about our current culture. Sure, the "*kin" are a fringe minority, but they are an outgrowth of the zeitgeist. Everyone must be allowed to define themselves, and if you don't agree with them, you be hatin'!



« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 07:55:30 PM by fistful »
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2014, 07:54:08 PM »

If she "changed" her "gender" to male, you would have to acknowledge that she is a male. Or you are a big meanie. You must call her what she pretends to be; not what she is.

In the same way, when a non-believer claims to be a Christian, you are a big meanie, to say otherwise. You must call her what she pretends to be; not what she is.

Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2014, 08:35:21 PM »
I'm pretty sure equating ham and bacon is blasphemy.

So all Canadians are going to hell?

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2014, 08:44:51 PM »
So all Canadians are going to hell?

I hear the winters are nice there  :lol:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Re: Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2014, 10:04:05 PM »
OK, I thought what the Pope said would have some sway with their doctrine, but that's not my call.  I did think, since the thread is about Baptist beliefs, that their clear stance against capital punishment would make my point that beliefs change.  At at any rate, you are still free to believe the word, and meaning, doesn't change.  I'll move along.

This thread is about Southern Baptist beliefs. The gulf between Southern Baptists and American Baptists is greater the the one between the former and Catholics. (Regular Baptists being much closer and having far less variation between individual churches than Southern.)  

And that's just three of the Baptist denominations. They go from snake handling to charismatic to evangelical to effectively the mainline protestant churches (aforesaid American Baptists being one if these.)

And I must apologize, I meant my post to be taken humorously as you had basically picked mainline protestants after what Balog had said. I'm sorry to have been rude.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,881
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2014, 12:07:55 AM »
I know several Nuclearphysicists that woek at Fermi Lab.  We've had several interesting discussions regarding G-d and the creation of the Universe and matter.  To a man they all agree that there must have been some intelligent design given the way the universe works and their discoveries.

A lot of physicists are uncomfortable with a multiverse view of cosmology and find themselves with nothing else other than the anthropic principle to explain what is observed.

It must suck to reject the concept of God and then find after a lifetime of observation that life and humanity could only exist in what by observation appears to be an incredibly finely tuned reality :angel:




« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 12:15:26 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Re: Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2014, 09:47:22 AM »
And that's just three of the Baptist denominations. They go from snake handling to charismatic to evangelical to effectively the mainline protestant churches (aforesaid American Baptists being one if these.)

And don't forget the various Primitive Baptist subgroups.  I got invited to one of their church dances(!) where the preacher brought a case of beer(!).

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,742
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2014, 09:56:22 AM »
I'm honestly curious: how do you define who is and is not a Christian? Is merely self-describing as "Christian" enough, even though Christianity is generally agreed on as a mono-theistic religion and there are avowed atheists who self-describe that way? Not being argumentative, I just literally don't understand the objection to saying "A member of Religion X is someone who believes the central tenets of Religion X."
I would say that Christian just means someone who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.  I guess anyone can call themselves anything.  It doesn't matter to me.  I figure God is the one deciding who is saved and who isn't.  I don't think I or any Church need to try to decide that.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,742
Re: Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2014, 10:02:32 AM »
It is an Old Testament principle. "An eye for an eye" is one of the Old Testament principles that were deemed to have been replaced by Jesus' teachings and are enshrined in the New Testament.
Since the Mosaic Law of the OT was a mix of secular and theocractic laws, I think you need to differentiate the two.  The secular side can be used as a guideline to modern laws.  I could be wrong, but I thought most of Jesus objections to enforcement were objections to mob rule and lack of any sort of impartial judgement.  Plus, He was generally focusing on spiritual salvation rather than physical salvation.  Maybe that is a discussion for another thread.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge