Obama embraces his fellow Communists in Cuba, normalizes relations

[Balog]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/world/americas/us-cuba-relations.html

Probably wants to show them how the glorious revolution is going here. I love that he's bowing to this guy too. If he ever gets to North Korea he'll probably prostrate himself in obeisance before Kim Jong Un.

[Monkeyleg]

God, I hate that mother *expletive deleted*er.

[Balog]

Is there any evil despot this man will not bow to?

[SADShooter]

Is there any evil despot this man will not bow to?

The American People.

[wmenorr67]

Mixed feelings about this.  Not sure it is a bad thing to open up trade with a country 90 miles south of us.  I would love to have the money to go down there and start buying up all the cars that are from the 50's and 60's that are still running.

[Ron]

Mixed feelings about this.  Not sure it is a bad thing to open up trade with a country 90 miles south of us.  I would love to have the money to go down there and start buying up all the cars that are from the 50's and 60's that are still running.

Mixed feelings here also.

I think this will be the beginning of the end of communist Cuba. There will be a sea change shift as they enter the 21st century.

[TommyGunn]

Mixed feelings here also.

I think this will be the beginning of the end of communist Cuba. There will be a sea change shift as they enter the 21st century.

We trade with China and they're still communist.   
Castro's political power is the type that comes from the barrel of a gun.   They won't give it up so easily.

[Balog]

Mixed feelings about this.  Not sure it is a bad thing to open up trade with a country 90 miles south of us.  I would love to have the money to go down there and start buying up all the cars that are from the 50's and 60's that are still running.

This doesn't lift the embargo, only Congress can do that. This just reopens the embassy.

Mixed feelings here also.

I think this will be the beginning of the end of communist Cuba. There will be a sea change shift as they enter the 21st century.

We are the only country in the world that was embargoing them, and we do it half assed. Lifting the embargo wouldn't change anything other than strengthening the current regime by allowing them access to our markets.

Here's description of their current market program.

Link to where quote is pulled from.

You think this will benefit the "little people"/proletariat? This will mostly benefit the Cuban govt, and very little will filter down to the regular people.

Cuba has two currencies. They have the regular Peso, and the Convertible Peso. It's illegal for the people to be in possession of US dollars, or other foreign currency. Foreign currency gets converted into the "Convertible Peso" at govt-run locations, after which you can spend that Convertible Peso, but only in certain stores designed for tourists.

The Convertible Peso (which the regular people can't really spend) trades against the "regular Peso" at a rate of about 20-30 to one. Regular Cubans are not permitted to spend the Convertible Peso in most stores. They have to trade any Convertible Pesos for regular Pesos, and then spend those... except the Cuban Government rips them off on the exchange rate, giving them fewer regular Pesos than the Convertible Pesos are really worth.

It's how the execrable Communist government keeps themselves in hard currency.

But you can go ahead and pretend that economic infusion will go to "the people" if it helps you sleep at night.

[TommyGunn]

Balog, where did you get that last quote from, explaining how Cuba keeps itself going?
Not questioning it -- in fact it makes a LOT of sense and I don't doubt its veracity; I'm just really curious.

[RoadKingLarry]

Mixed feelings here also.

I think this will be the beginning of the end of communist Cuba. There will be a sea change shift as they enter the 21st century.

Isn't the US pretty much the only country that didn't trade with Cuba? Having access to the whole rest of the world doesn't seem to had any effect. I doubt the US opening trade with them will have any either except maybe more "refugees".

[Balog]

Balog, where did you get that last quote from, explaining how Cuba keeps itself going?
Not questioning it -- in fact it makes a LOT of sense and I don't doubt its veracity; I'm just really curious.

Oops, I put a link to the source but accidentally had it in the part I had quoted from Ron. Fixed now.

[wmenorr67]

This doesn't lift the embargo, only Congress can do that. This just reopens the embassy.

I was making my statement based on Obama asking Congress to relook at the embargo and either weakening it if not lifting it altogether.

[RevDisk]

*shrug*

I'd prefer to make it contingent on some kind of democratic reform. But the embargo is long overdue for a stand down. Cuba's not exactly a strategic threat anymore.

[lupinus]

Overdue IMO and really no reason not to have done this all sooner.

[Sergeant Bob]

*shrug*

I'd prefer to make it contingent on some kind of democratic reform. But the embargo is long overdue for a stand down. Cuba's not exactly a strategic threat anymore.

Agreed. The embargo does nothing to help the Cuban people (victims) and does little to reform the communist gubmint.

[Jamisjockey]

Yep.  The embargo hasn't worked in 50 years.  Anyone know the definition of insanity?

Just because Obama is a commie doesn't mean he might occasionally make decisions that make sense.  And this is on the first steps.  As noted, congress has to end the embargo.  He's just opening an embassy and starting the beginnings of normalizing relations with them.

[grampster]

We should have normalized relations and ended the embargo when the Wall came down in Germany.  Some capitalism would have begun to change Cuba moreso than the embargo.

[Balog]

We should have normalized relations and ended the embargo when the Wall came down in Germany.  Some capitalism would have begun to change Cuba moreso than the embargo.

They have a non-embargo, "capitalistic" relationship with literally every other country in the world. Hasn't seemed to make much difference.

[SADShooter]

I don't have particular issue with anything that's been done, except to ask this question: Apart from the swap, what concession is the Cuban government making? To wit, this administration shows a pattern of acting in good faith with bad actors all over the globe (Russia, Iran, China, Afghan Taliban, Cuba et al.) making concessions and getting nothing substantive in return. Long term, the economic normalization is a good thing. Short term, capture an American, hold as leverage, get what you want.

"Soft power", indeed.

[Balog]

I'm still struggling to think of what legitimate American interest is served by this action.

[TommyGunn]

Yep.  The embargo hasn't worked in 50 years.  Anyone know the definition of insanity?

Just because Obama is a commie doesn't mean he might occasionally make decisions that make sense.  And this is on the first steps.  As noted, congress has to end the embargo.  He's just opening an embassy and starting the beginnings of normalizing relations with them.

Depends on what one expects from an embargo.
I think Balog has made some cogent and intelligent posts in this thread.

 

They have a non-embargo, "capitalistic" relationship with literally every other country in the world. Hasn't seemed to make much difference.

He also posted an excellent explanation on how the Cubans manipulate two different types of money to keep themselves in power.

You think this will benefit the "little people"/proletariat? This will mostly benefit the Cuban govt, and very little will filter down to the regular people.

Cuba has two currencies. They have the regular Peso, and the Convertible Peso. It's illegal for the people to be in possession of US dollars, or other foreign currency. Foreign currency gets converted into the "Convertible Peso" at govt-run locations, after which you can spend that Convertible Peso, but only in certain stores designed for tourists.

The Convertible Peso (which the regular people can't really spend) trades against the "regular Peso" at a rate of about 20-30 to one. Regular Cubans are not permitted to spend the Convertible Peso in most stores. They have to trade any Convertible Pesos for regular Pesos, and then spend those... except the Cuban Government rips them off on the exchange rate, giving them fewer regular Pesos than the Convertible Pesos are really worth.

It's how the execrable Communist government keeps themselves in hard currency.

But you can go ahead and pretend that economic infusion will go to "the people" if it helps you sleep at night.

We're opening up relationships with a regime that has neither promised or given anything in reciprocity.  Whatever benefits go to the Cubans will be usurped by the govt. to keep their power.
Which will prolong the Cuban peoples' opression.

No, I don't think the embargo was world-shatteringly important, but drawing it down will, IMHO, have some bad effects on the Cubans.  And for better or worse we will be partially morally culpable for them.
But, OTOH, we already live with so much ....perhaps in the end all will be rosy.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

It serves no american interest. Unless one needs yet another example of our fall from power


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[HankB]

I'm still struggling to think of what legitimate American interest is served by this action.

Legal Cuban cigars? (From fields and crops that haven't been maintained properly for decades.)
Good bass fishing? (From lakes that haven't been managed properly for decades.)
A chance for insiders to profit by providing foreign aid? (Hmmm - may be something to this.)

[wmenorr67]

I'm still struggling to think of what legitimate American interest is served by this action.

Legal Cuban cigars? (From fields and crops that haven't been maintained properly for decades.)
Good bass fishing? (From lakes that haven't been managed properly for decades.)
A chance for insiders to profit by providing foreign aid? (Hmmm - may be something to this.)

Another source of rum.

Vintage cars and trucks.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

How about those Cubans who fled here is their confiscated property restored to them? Reparations? Or does normalization finally make em sol forever


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