Author Topic: One of these guys is either delusional or a liar  (Read 11483 times)

Darwin

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One of these guys is either delusional or a liar
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2006, 12:57:55 PM »
I'll go with "or what" for $100.

richyoung

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« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2006, 01:12:36 PM »
Quote from: Darwin
But the comparison is as ludicrous as your entire argument. Before I explain it to you, I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself. Tell me--what is the primary difference between our post-war occupations in the countries you mention and our occupation in Iraq?
The primary difference is that the post-war operations were POST-WAR!  The fighting is still going on  - as well it should be.  In the third year of WWII we had barely landed in Africa - technically, we are STILL at war in Korea.
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Darwin

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« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2006, 01:15:12 PM »
Please refresh my memory--didn't the banner declare "Mission Accomplished"? Or was that just another lie?

richyoung

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« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2006, 01:21:40 PM »
Quote from: Darwin
Please refresh my memory--didn't the banner declare "Mission Accomplished"? Or was that just another lie?
The mission of destroying the Iraqi military and de-throning Sadaam and his secret police WAS accomplished.  That is NOT the same thing as all the work, or even all the fighting, is done.  One could reasonably have stated "mission accomplished" in August 1945, but people were still being killed from WWII as late as 1956.

Edited to be "polite"...
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Darwin

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« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2006, 01:33:14 PM »
From today's San Francisco Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/18/MNGTTLRELS1.DTL&feed=rss.news):

The following are quotes from Larry Diamond, one of a panel of experts advising the Iraq Study Group that is co-chaired by James Baker, and who is an expert on building democracies who is at Stanford University's Hoover Institution and is a former adviser to the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq:

Quote from: Larry Diamond
"There's a sense among many people now that things in Iraq are slipping fast and there isn't a lot of time to reverse them..."

"The civil war is already well along. We have no way of knowing if it's too late until we try a radically different course..."
From the San Francisco Chronicle article from which the direct quotes were taken:

Quote from: San Francisco Chronicle
But having studied the situation in Iraq closely almost from the time Saddam Hussein was toppled in April 2003, and having been involved in trying to build a functioning democracy there, Diamond said the one thing the United States might no longer have is time. The Bush administration needs to initiate a "crash program" to avoid a catastrophe, he said. A key element would include bringing in new U.S. leadership to rebuild America's battered credibility in Iraq and the region...

If the Bush administration does not move rapidly in this direction and the violence continues to rise, Diamond said he fears Iraq's central government could be overthrown or collapse and the Iraqi military might disintegrate, leaving heavily armed militias controlled by the Kurds, the Shiites and the Sunnis in a bloody struggle for power. The already heavy civilian death toll could soar still higher, dragging Iraq's neighbors into the chaos, he said.

The result, Diamond warned, could be the transformation of the Sunni-dominated Anbar province west of Baghdad into a zone effectively controlled by Islamic extremists, filled with terrorist training camps.

"What worries me more than any other single thing," Diamond said, "is if the country does effectively get broken up through a civil war -- and Anbar province, where most of the Sunnis live, becomes what Afghanistan was before 9/11."

At best, Diamond said, it appears the United States has a few months to implement a new strategy. He added, though, that an atrocity by an Iraqi group -- such as the bombing of the Askariya shrine, sacred to Shiites, in Samarra in February -- could trigger a cycle of retaliation that might spin out of control and give the United States even less time to act.

The first step the Bush administration should take is to renounce any plan to maintain permanent U.S. military bases in the country, said Diamond. Polls inside the country have shown that the vast majority of Iraqis fear that the secret U.S. aim is to continue to occupy Iraq and control its oil, a view that has fueled the insurgency...

...The United States should also announce plans for a flexible drawdown of troops over a period of from 18 months to 3 years, he said.

...He emphasized that the Iraq plan should be flexible so that, if things stabilize, the troops can leave earlier or the drawdown can be slowed if violence flares...

...Diamond stressed that the Bush administration has to move forward on all these different tracks simultaneously, in part because they are interconnected and in part because there is no time to wait for the resolution of one issue before moving on to the next.

"This is the fourth quarter, there's two minutes left in the game, and we're down two touchdowns," said Diamond. "There may not be enough time left."
That last bit would seem to support the drawdown taking longer than I predict, but my guess is that once we start pulling out troops, we'll pull them out at a faster pace than Diamond suggests, but notice he left that option open. Also note his emphasis on the immediacy of the problem, which is why I predict this will all happen sooner rather than later.

Darwin

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« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2006, 01:35:00 PM »
So, Rich, exactly how many people were "still being killed from WWII" in 1956. Or even in 1949 for that matter? Was it anything like the 70 soldiers who have died this month in Iraq?

richyoung

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« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2006, 01:43:05 PM »
Quote from: Darwin
So, Rich, exactly how many people were "still being killed from WWII" in 1956. Or even in 1949 for that matter? Was it anything like the 70 soldiers who have died this month in Iraq?
Can't give you exact figure - I can tell you I've been to germany, and seen monuments to their war dead.  The WWII monuments had dates running into 1956 - apparently, the RUssians weren't in much of a hurry to return POWs, nor were they particularly concerned with their health.  Add to that land and sea mines, White Russian troops still fighting, hold-out japanese - (last one surrendered in the '70's, I beleive...), dud arial bombs going off when hit by agriculteral and construction equipment,,,,,
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richyoung

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« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2006, 01:48:01 PM »
Larry Diamond can't be too swift.  For one thing, there IS no civil war in Iraq, nor are we on the verge of one.  Here's a hint - a civil war looks like the US in the 1860's, or Spain in the 1930's.  You know, uniforms, flags, sides, foreign policies - stuff like that.  What you have in Iraq is violence, instigated in large part by Iran and Syria (our enemies who sponsr terrorism - whodathunkit?) and carried out in large part either by former weilders of power who know that prison or a firing squad await them if a democratic government comes to power, or former victims of the same unwilling to wait that long, and taking advantage of the current instability to get revenge now.
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Darwin

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« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2006, 01:48:41 PM »
And I'm sure Iraqis will be dying for decades after we are a distant bad memory. Let me rephrase the question: how many Americans were dying four years after the initial mission (defeating Japan and removing Hitler from power) was accomplished? I think that would be a more appropriate comparison.

wingnutx

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« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2006, 01:50:35 PM »
Quote from: Darwin
Please refresh my memory--didn't the banner declare "Mission Accomplished"? Or was that just another lie?
That was the carrier declaring that their mission was accomplished and they were going home.

Both ships I was on did exactly that sort of thing at the end of a deployment.

Spin it however you want, though.

Darwin

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« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2006, 01:51:05 PM »
Rich, if you are asking me to choose between your assessment, or the assessment of a man whom the Bush administration sent to Iraq to help develop a democratic government because of his experience and credentials, I'm sorry, but that is like choosing between you and a surgeon from the Mayo clinic when deciding who should remove my brain tumor. In other words, your post is beyond ludicrous.

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2006, 01:59:31 PM »
Quote from: Darwin
I'll go with "or what" for $100.
OK.  Then are you going to admit that the two statements you started out with are not mutually exclusive?
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2006, 02:00:35 PM »
"Mission Accomplished" referred to the USS Abe Lincoln's year long mission to the gulf.  The banner was placed by the Navy, not the White House, and was meant to celebrate the fact that the crew of the ship had in fact accomplished its mission and was going home.  This is standard procedure.

It was the media, not the White House, that made the assertion that the banner claimed the war in Iraq was over.  I'll admit that the Bush admin should have done a better job clearing up that misunderstanding.

But so what?  What if the Bush Admin had intended to say that the war was won?  Would that somehow invalidate any of our actions in Iraq ever since?  Would it somehow change the fact that bailing out now would be a boneheaded move?  Would it illegitimize the new Iraqi government?  Would it mean that the war is now hopelessly lost?

Would it be anything other than a vynyl banner haning on an aircraft carrier, and evidence of a botched PR gambit?  Truly, it wouldn't mean a damn thing at all, except perhaps to the Bush haters grasping at straws.

Darwin

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« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2006, 02:24:55 PM »
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're all not just a bunch of Bush toadies rearranging the deck chairs while the entire neocon agenda goes down in flames.

Maybe, but I doubt it. We'll see soon enough.

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2006, 02:33:14 PM »
Maybe you'll just never admit it when one of your superficial arguments doesn't fit the facts.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2006, 03:20:52 PM »
I dont understand Larry Diamond's position.  He seems to be saying that we need to hurry up and declare defeat before we get defeated.  Seems odd but it wouldnt be the first time a member of the administration was working to undermine them.

As for Darwin, I still want to know what we get if you're wrong.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2006, 03:35:08 PM »
I propose a bet, Darwin.  I'll wager $50.00 of ammo that there is no big bail out after the upcoming elections.

For the purposes of the bet, let's define a "bail out" as a withdrawal of at least 2/3 of American forces by the end of the year.

Interested?

richyoung

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« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2006, 04:42:30 PM »
Quote from: Darwin
Rich, if you are asking me to choose between your assessment, or the assessment of a man whom the Bush administration sent to Iraq to help develop a democratic government because of his experience and credentials, I'm sorry, ...
Ah, but once again young grasshopper - you are at best misled, at worst, deliberately disenginuous.  I'm not asking you to choose anything.  Lets look at the WHOLE report when it comes out, instead of a quote or two taken out of context.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2006, 08:09:16 PM »
Quote from: Darwin
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're all not just a bunch of Bush toadies rearranging the deck chairs while the entire neocon agenda goes down in flames.
If I'm a Bush toady, I want my paycheck!
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richyoung

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« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2006, 08:12:30 AM »
Me too!  How doth it profit a man to be part of a vast right wing conspiracy, ifeth the paycheck don't arrive?

BTW, I'm not Jewish, and there is nothing "neo" about my conservatism, so I can't be a "neo-con",...
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2006, 08:16:17 AM »
Quote from: richyoung
BTW, I'm not Jewish, and there is nothing "neo" about my conservatism, so I can't be a "neo-con",...
Where is the "roll eyes while puking" icon?
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richyoung

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« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2006, 11:15:13 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: richyoung
BTW, I'm not Jewish, and there is nothing "neo" about my conservatism, so I can't be a "neo-con",...
Where is the "roll eyes while puking" icon?
You were perhaps unaware that the term "neo-con" has been used as a "polite" way to disguise thinly vieled antisemiticism?

"Some of those identified as neoconservatives refuse to embrace the term. Critics argue that it lacks coherent definition, that it is coherent only in a Cold War context, or is used as a pejorative by anti-Semites. See e.g. Barry Rubin, director of the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Institute, Interdisciplinary Center of Herzliya, in a letter from Washington for Sunday, April 6, 2003:

First, "neo-conservative" is a codeword for Jewish. As antisemites did with big business moguls in the nineteenth century and Communist leaders in the twentieth, the trick here is to take all those involved in some aspect of public life and single out those who are Jewish. The implication made is that this is a Jewish-led movement conducted not in the interests of all the, in this case, American people, but to the benefit of Jews, and in this case Israel. "

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservative
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Lee

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« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2006, 11:43:33 AM »
"Bullpucky. 3000 casualties is less than 3 battalions of troops.  Thats less than one battalion of loses a year - and we're NOT loosing a bunch of tanks, airplanes, or other heavy equipment.  Not to mention its better to fight them OVER THERE, than have parts of Manhattan leveled in terrorist acts."

Hmmm...don't think so. With over 3000 KIA and 12,000 wounded, nearly a total depletion of National guard equipment and resources, and multiple in-county unit rotations for most branches, the situation is getting dire without a draft and a huge increases in material resources.

richyoung

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« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2006, 11:54:10 AM »
Quote from: Lee
Hmmm...don't think so. With over 3000 KIA and 12,000 wounded,...
We lost that many kille din ONE DAY - 9/11 - remember?
.
Quote
nearly a total depletion of National guard equipment and resources,
How much Guard Artillery has been lost?  How many Guard tanks?  How many Guard airplanes?

Quote
and multiple in-county unit rotations for most branches, the situation is getting dire without a draft and a huge increases in material resources.
To the extent that it is dire, it is a result of politicians, many Democrat "spending" a non-existant "peace dividend", and NOT the war on terror, which is, after all , a WAR - and NOT one of our own instigation.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2006, 11:58:13 AM »
As I understand it, a neo-con is a person who supports an interventionist foreign policy and may also support "statist" government programs at home.  While I don't fit the former entirely, or the latter at all, I am starting to take neo-con as a compliment.  It seems to mean "far-right-wing totalitarian" to some people, and that's just the kind of nonsense I'm used to.
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