ISIS Tar baby

[Scout26]

I din understand - don't you realise we won in Iraq?   It's a success story damnit.  Acknowledging anything contrary to that concrete fact is unamerican.

We also beat the Germans in WWI.   So what's your point?

[MicroBalrog]

Edit:  a great irony that the U.S. is backing the Saudis (read ISIS - same religion and laws) against the "evil" Syrians, who did anti-freedom things like ban headscarves and outlaw Muslim religious groups. 

And shell civilians with artillery because they happened to be of the wrong Muslim sect, murdering far more people than Al-Quaeda has ever done.

And sponsor Hezbollah.

And murder political opponents in Lebanon.

[RoadKingLarry]

And shell civilians with artillery because they happened to be of the wrong Muslim sect, murdering far more people than Al-Quaeda has ever done.

And sponsor Hezbollah.

And murder political opponents in Lebanon.

Didn't they also cross the "red line" and use chemical weapons on civilians.

[De Selby]

And shell civilians with artillery because they happened to be of the wrong Muslim sect, murdering far more people than Al-Quaeda has ever done.

And sponsor Hezbollah.

And murder political opponents in Lebanon.

In other words, Syria is using the tactics against ISIS that many posters on this forum are calling on the U.S. to use.  Syria's death toll of civilians and murder of political opponents in Lebanon trails Israel's by a wide margin.

I mentioned Iraq because it was supposed to be a major blow to Muslim terrorists.  Now not only have we given them a country, our allies in Saudi Arabia and Israel are giving them weapons and money.

Maybe it's just me, but as an American I have a problem with arming al Qaeda and ISIS, especially against a country that's never attacked America.

[MicroBalrog]

ISIS doesn't have a country.

I predict confidently they'll be destroyed, or severely weakened, by this time next year.

They're totally overblown as a threaat.

[RoadKingLarry]

I predict confidently they'll be destroyed, or severely weakened, by this time next year.

I hope you are correct but I'll predict confidently that if there is anyway Obama can screw up that happening he'll find a way to do it.

[De Selby]

ISIS doesn't have a country.

I predict confidently they'll be destroyed, or severely weakened, by this time next year.

They're totally overblown as a threaat.

Unfortunately the air support and weapons they and their comrades get from Israel may be boosted to ensure their survival - ISIS presence in Syria and its power to threaten Damascus appears to be a key goal of Israeli policy at the moment, sort of like how Israel's funding for Hamas and Al Qaeda in Lebanon provided a counterbalance to more moderate, but more strategically powerful enemies.

[MicroBalrog]

Unfortunately the air support and weapons they and their comrades get from Israel may be boosted to ensure their survival - ISIS presence in Syria and its power to threaten Damascus appears to be a key goal of Israeli policy at the moment, sort of like how Israel's funding for Hamas and Al Qaeda in Lebanon provided a counterbalance to more moderate, but more strategically powerful enemies.

FSA =/= ISIS.is y

I would be  unsurprised if Israel starts bombing ISIS this year.

[MicroBalrog]

ISIS experiencing a shortage of suicide bombers

[Fitz]

I think ISIS made a big mistake effing with Jordan

[Scout26]

I think ISIS made a big mistake effing with Jordan

Yep, nothing like fighting a war on 3-4 fronts.  (Syria, Iraq, Kurdistan, and now Jordan).

[agricola]

I think ISIS made a big mistake effing with Jordan

They have made loads of big mistakes - if they had released the likes of Kassig and Hemming they would probably be in Baghdad by now.

[wmenorr67]

Now Egypt has decided to play.  About time that the countries in that part of the world get involved in cleaning up their own backyard.

[RocketMan]

Now Egypt has decided to play.  About time that the countries in that part of the world get involved in cleaning up their own backyard.

Except that air strikes have been the only consistent response.  Sure, there has been some ground action by a couple of players, but the results have been decidedly mixed.
Until there are large numbers of boots on the ground going after ISIS frequently and kicking their butts on a regular basis, nothing about this will really change.  ISIS will continue to lay waste to the areas they enter, and more folks will lose their heads.

[roo_ster]

Except that air strikes have been the only consistent response.  Sure, there has been some ground action by a couple of players, but the results have been decidedly mixed.
Until there are large numbers of boots on the ground going after ISIS frequently and kicking their butts on a regular basis, nothing about this will really change.  ISIS will continue to lay waste to the areas they enter, and more folks will lose their heads.

It is almost as if to change the reality on the ground, you need to be right there--on the ground--making stuff happen.  And that air support is just that: support and not the reality-changing agent itself. 

NOTE: I am not endorsing sending our own boys to tromp around the current instantiation of "Mostest Dangerousus Conflict Evar." 

[Scout26]

To quote T.R. Fehrenbach from This Kind of War:

“In July, 1950, one news commentator rather plaintively remarked that warfare had not changed so much, after all. For some reason, ground troops still seemed to be necessary, in spite of the atom bomb. And oddly and unfortunately, to this gentleman, man still seemed to be an important ingredient in battle. Troops were still getting killed, in pain and fury and dust and filth. What happened to the widely-heralded pushbutton warfare where skilled, immaculate technicians who never suffered the misery and ignominy of basic training blew each other to kingdom come like gentlemen?
 In this unconsciously plaintive cry lies the buried a great deal of the truth why the United States was almost defeated.
Nothing had happened to pushbutton warfare; its emergence was at hand. Horrible weapons that could destroy every city on Earth were at hand—at too many hands. But, pushbutton warfare meant Armageddon, and Armageddon, hopefully, will never be an end of national policy.
Americans in 1950 rediscovered something that since Hiroshima they had forgotten: you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life—but if you desire to defend it, protect it and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men in the mud. ”

[wmenorr67]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/17/state-department-spokeswoman-floats-jobs-as-answer-to-isis/

Now the State Department is saying we need to give the poor Muslim boys jobs.

We're killing a lot of them, and we're going to keep killing more of them. ... But we cannot win this war by killing them," department spokeswoman Marie Harf said on MSNBC's "Hardball." "We need ... to go after the root causes that leads people to join these groups, whether it's lack of opportunity for jobs, whether --"

At that point, Harf was interrupted by host Chris Matthews, who pointed out, "There's always going to be poor people. There's always going to be poor Muslims."

Harf continued to argue that the U.S. should work with other countries to "help improve their governance" and "help them build their economies so they can have job opportunities for these people."

She acknowledged there's "no easy solution" and said the U.S. would still take out ISIS leaders. But Harf said: "If we can help countries work at the root causes of this -- what makes these 17-year-old kids pick up an AK-47 instead of trying to start a business?"

[Ben]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/17/state-department-spokeswoman-floats-jobs-as-answer-to-isis/

Now the State Department is saying we need to give the poor Muslim boys jobs.

Maybe in the Tyson chicken factory chicken beheading division?

[Scout26]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/17/state-department-spokeswoman-floats-jobs-as-answer-to-isis/

Now the State Department is saying we need to give the poor Muslim boys jobs.

 

They really don't get it.  It's not the poor that become fanatics.  If you look back through history the ones that formented and lead revolutions and the like were the rich and wealthy, not some poor down-trodden sod from the slums or ghetto.

Lenin
Castro
Guevera
The Founding Fathers
Bin-Laden


They just don't get their motivations.  They think they will bring heaven on earth as prophesized in the Koran.  They don't care about jobs or money or their portfolios.  They are true believers and are willing to die to prove it.  Hell, even the folks over at the Atlantic are beginning to figure it out.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ISIS-radical-Islam-understand-beliefs/2015/02/16/id/625066/

[Perd Hapley]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/17/state-department-spokeswoman-floats-jobs-as-answer-to-isis/

Now the State Department is saying we need to give the poor Muslim boys jobs.

If the Middle East tries capitalism over there, and it works, maybe we can try it here.

[lupinus]

Someone should send her stupid ass to negotiate with them. See how she likes being enslaved and playing second fiddle to a goat.

[wmenorr67]

Hell if money was the answer open up resorts and bring in the tourist trade.

[41magsnub]

Hell if money was the answer open up resorts and bring in the tourist trade.

Come see Syria.  There is at least a 40% chance you won't get beheaded or burned alive during your stay!

[AJ Dual]

I do agree that ISIS is going to be a short lived phenomena.

By definition assuming the analysis of them non-rational players with an Islamist apocalyptic mindset is correct, then they'll run into the ultimate barrier that all apocalyptic cults have when the apocalypse doesn't cooperate. Western and various apostate Islamic factions show up to fight them, and ISIS doesn't win, Mohammed doesn't show up, and the 12 Imam doesn't jump out of the well or whatever...  They'll lose steam.

Then the PITA is going to be the nastiness of a wide array of splinter groups metastasizing and re-forming, but it won't have the short-lived unity ISIS is demonstrating.

[roo_ster]

I do agree that ISIS is going to be a short lived phenomena.

By definition assuming the analysis of them non-rational players with an Islamist apocalyptic mindset is correct, then they'll run into the ultimate barrier that all apocalyptic cults have when the apocalypse doesn't cooperate. Western and various apostate Islamic factions show up to fight them, and ISIS doesn't win, Mohammed doesn't show up, and the 12 Imam doesn't jump out of the well or whatever...  They'll lose steam.

Then the PITA is going to be the nastiness of a wide array of splinter groups metastasizing and re-forming, but it won't have the short-lived unity ISIS is demonstrating.

From what I have read, they are not particularly apocalyptic, just small-o orthodox in their Islam.  They have the authority of their scripture to buffer their claims.  And if they keep on succeeding, they will be seen as strong and get more backing.