Author Topic: Has anyone tried Windows 10?  (Read 8086 times)

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2015, 11:01:23 AM »
Kinda presumed Xboxes were to MS Gold subscriptions what printers were to ink cartridges, a machine sold at break-even to get the consumer in a perpetual-resupply (or subscription renewal pipeline)

Brad

XBox Live is fairly expensive to run.

My larger point was that Xbox, as a hardware unit, is a loss of revenue but it doesnt hurt the company because of software and infrastructure as a service.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,500
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2015, 08:58:22 AM »
Thanks for all the pointers, folks. I didn't know 10 was going to be a free upgrade. I think I'll do a fresh install of 7, and then wait for 10 to come out.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2015, 09:43:05 AM »
I hope when that happens the computing world will vote with their feet and switch to Linux. It used to be that the operating system was an integral part of the computer; after all, a computer without an operating system is a large doorstop. Selling a computer that includes a rented operating system is about like selling a new car but you have to pay an annual fee or they repossess the tires.

That's just wrong. It's blackmail. MS is counting on the inertia of the installed user base to carry them through such a landmark change. I hope it bites them in the butt -- hard.
Good luck with that. You can still buy the license for office, or you can subscribe. I don't know a whole lot of folks these days using office who haven't gone over to 365 for the lower start up cost and upgrades, hell even the luddites at my church loved the idea. Maybe they'll keep that same model of buy or subscribe, maybe they'll do away with the buy option altogether and go fully to the subscribe model, I really don't care, and I'll bet most folks wont either. Get the pricing right for what you get in return and most folks wont give two shits about paying a sub fee. Buy a computer and it comes X amount of included time, and it's X dollars a year after that, and few folks will bitch about constantly having the most up to date versions.

Or you could put your bets on the free options. Ever used the word linux, or the name of one of it's various flavors, with the average person? Most of them will have no idea what you are talking about, what it is, and a fair number wont even understand the concept if you take the time to explain it to them. They either leave the conversation confused or having no idea why they should bother. And the few that do, good luck making a convert out of them when they find out what a bitch it can be to get the latest edition of (insert favorite program/app/feature/game here) to work, if it'll even work at all.

Go ahead and mention OpenOffice while you are at it, most still wont know what you are talking about but some might at least get the concept. And the folks who just do stuff at home without sharing/sending/receiving documents might even like it if they decide to give it a try. But you think they'll bitch about the sub fee? Wait until the first time they send or receive a document that has to interact with MS office and it gets *expletive deleted*ed up, the wallet will be out and they'll have 365 going before they are done cursing your name and offspring unto the 365th generation. You might have slightly better luck with Google docs. From their android and/or gmail they might have at least heard of it and find a couple applications where it is useful. But they'll likely go right back to office for everything else.

In short, love em or hate em, it'll take a lot more than charging a sub fee to use windows (or anything but the most basic features of windows) to make the average user kick Microsoft to the curb and go to free ware. If they really do get pissed off enough to switch, they'll just take up writing shitty poetry and drinking overpriced coffee in a comfy Starschmucks chair whilst cradling a shiny new MacBook Pro. Downloads of Ubuntu wont tick up to much because of it.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,354
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2015, 10:21:06 AM »
In short, love em or hate em, it'll take a lot more than charging a sub fee to use windows (or anything but the most basic features of windows) to make the average user kick Microsoft to the curb and go to free ware. If they really do get pissed off enough to switch, they'll just take up writing shitty poetry and drinking overpriced coffee in a comfy Starschmucks chair whilst cradling a shiny new MacBook Pro. Downloads of Ubuntu wont tick up to much because of it.

I wsn't even suggesting that Microsoft go to freeware. I just don't like the subscription model. Like my cars (my "new" car is 14 years old), I tend to stay with what works until it doesn't work. I'm still happily getting by with Office 2003 at home (and it doesn't hurt that my assigned computer at work is the same model of Dell that I use at home, and the work computer is also running Windows XP and Office 2003). The old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. I know the software companies have to make changes and offer "upgrades" to make money, which is their business, but the reality is that any new features in Office 2007/2010/20xx are probably things that not more than one user in 10,000 will ever know about or care about.

I expect to pay a fair price for a software package (not that I consider Microsoft's prices for Windows or Office to be fair) and then keep using it until **I** decide it's time to upgrade.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Marnoot

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,965
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2015, 10:44:06 AM »
One extra thing to consider with "sticking with what works until it doesn't" with software is security, especially for the operating system. XP admittedly still works fine for the majority of PC user's needs (read browsing, email, productivity software), but its security holes are no longer going to be patched as they are found due to Microsoft discontinuing support, opening you more to viruses, malware, etc.

As a consumer I'm not a big fan of software-as-a-service (limited-term license model) either when the older buy-it-once (indefinite-license model) is taken off the table. That said, at the same time I understand why companies are doing it. My own employer is looking to go that route for some offerings, and I have to admit it makes the most business sense for our products.

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2015, 11:04:11 AM »
I wsn't even suggesting that Microsoft go to freeware. I just don't like the subscription model. Like my cars (my "new" car is 14 years old), I tend to stay with what works until it doesn't work. I'm still happily getting by with Office 2003 at home (and it doesn't hurt that my assigned computer at work is the same model of Dell that I use at home, and the work computer is also running Windows XP and Office 2003). The old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. I know the software companies have to make changes and offer "upgrades" to make money, which is their business, but the reality is that any new features in Office 2007/2010/20xx are probably things that not more than one user in 10,000 will ever know about or care about.

I expect to pay a fair price for a software package (not that I consider Microsoft's prices for Windows or Office to be fair) and then keep using it until **I** decide it's time to upgrade.
I know you weren't suggesting MS go to freeware, but the problem is two fold. Firstly that you are in a distinctly small minority. Most folks aren't, and don't have an interest in, running office 2003 anymore. Most folks aren't even running machines where XP or 2003 was an option. Hell, most probably aren't even running ones that had Vista or 07 as an option. Most users upgrade periodically, either buying the software upgrade itself or when they buy a new machine. And the ones that don't often don't simply because they don't want to pay a big chunk at once to do so , so they stick with what they already got. You charge them say, 15-30 bucks a year to unlock all the features and include upgrading to the newest versions? Especially if you don't have to lay out the big chunk of money to start off with? It'll be a very small number of folks who complain about it. Most will focus on the "sweet "free" upgrades!" aspect and probably embrace it just like they have with 365. For those with no interest they'll probably keep the one time fee option just like they have with office, and major upgrades (such at the folks sticking with 7 until 10 goes live) will perhaps be an optional update/upgrade for the folks running the subscription version. So yeah, it makes perfect business sense to cater to your average user and not to the small minority. Especially in this case where the small minority isn't making you money anyway since you aren't buying the up to date product.

Second problem is that for even the people who will complain, most will complain and keep right along using it just like they do right now. For all the folks I know who complain about this or that with Microsoft they still use it because frankly, it's a PITA not to. You average user isn't going to sit there and fiddle with linux and either have to do work arounds to get programs to work or have it not work at all and rely on alternatives that kind of sort of work equate to the programs they are familiar with. They. Simply. Will. Not. Do. It. A few folks will, most folks simply will not do it. They either don't know how and don't want to know how, or the PITA factor outweighs they're desire to ditch Windows. Hell I know folks who got rid of XP because they got tired of fiddling with newer programs that simply wont run on it properly anymore. If there is any sort of exodus I guarantee you it'll be to Mac because it's the next best and a very recognizable option that, while different, works without having to fiddle and make things work, but I highly doubt there would be anything of an exodus at all.

Another overlooked bonus is the plain and simple lower start up cost. I'm typing this on a mid-range gaming rig that I pieced out and put together myself. 8.1, while not a huge part of the cost, certainly wasn't an insignificant part of the cost either. Because of the overall cost the OS wasn't a deal breaker. Make the subscription a reasonable fee per year? Building your average day to day use computer just got a whole lot more price competitive to running down to Best Buy or hitting Amazon, because it often doesn't make fiscal sense to build you own low spec computer if you have to start from scratch and buy the OS on top of that. Knock a good 70-80 bucks off the start up total and it does though. I wont make the presumption that the big manufacturers will pass any savings along to the consumer, but hell I'll throw out a maybe the low end computer you buy for your grandparents to look at Facebook photos of the grandkids gets a hair cheaper due to the lower cost on their end for the OS, just cause we're already on the topic.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Sindawe

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,938
  • Vashneesht
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2015, 12:06:53 PM »
Drinking the Kool-Aid

I've been using Windows flavors since early 1998 when it became undeniable that IBM was going to let OS/2 wither and die.  :'(  Over the course of Win98, 2k, XP, Vista and 7 its been...OK... and I've adapted to the interface design, lockups and cryptic BSODs.  When 8 and Server 2012 came out my workplace has started rolling it out on a limited basis, and I've come to HATE the interface design with this new generation.

Three months ago my primary home machine (a mostly stable Vista Ultimate machine) bit the dust and I snap purchased a replacement and started using my 2' MacBook Pro in the interim.  Since then, the new PC has been sitting in its box serving as a sunning perch for the cats and I've come to the realization that I'm happier on OS X than any flavor of Windows or even *nix.  Yesterday I started pricing out a Mac-Mini equivalent to the Dell/sun perch noted above, the cost is not hugely more than what I paid for the cat seat, AND there are native ports of the older games I like (COD & Brothers in Arms WWII shooters).  I can do all the stuff I need to do for work via Citrix into the work place, have less malware to worry about AND get to feel smug about my PC choice again.  =D

I'll keep the Winbox and check out Win10 for exposure, but at this point I think the image below fits me now.

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Calumus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,207
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2015, 01:58:33 PM »
If Mac-mini is the way you're going, see if you can dig up a 2012 model. Quad core was an option, as was user upgradable ram.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,500
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2015, 03:01:52 PM »
I wsn't even suggesting that Microsoft go to freeware. I just don't like the subscription model. Like my cars (my "new" car is 14 years old), I tend to stay with what works until it doesn't work. I'm still happily getting by with Office 2003 at home (and it doesn't hurt that my assigned computer at work is the same model of Dell that I use at home, and the work computer is also running Windows XP and Office 2003). The old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. I know the software companies have to make changes and offer "upgrades" to make money, which is their business, but the reality is that any new features in Office 2007/2010/20xx are probably things that not more than one user in 10,000 will ever know about or care about.

I expect to pay a fair price for a software package (not that I consider Microsoft's prices for Windows or Office to be fair) and then keep using it until **I** decide it's time to upgrade.

You've just made a fine argument for the subscription model. If people are going to be perfectly happy using the same software for a decade or more, you can see how Microsoft might want to get more than a few hundred bucks out of it.


I know you weren't suggesting MS go to freeware, but the problem is two fold. Firstly that you are in a distinctly small minority. Most folks aren't, and don't have an interest in, running office 2003 anymore. Most folks aren't even running machines where XP or 2003 was an option. Hell, most probably aren't even running ones that had Vista or 07 as an option. Most users upgrade periodically, either buying the software upgrade itself or when they buy a new machine. And the ones that don't often don't simply because they don't want to pay a big chunk at once to do so , so they stick with what they already got. You charge them say, 15-30 bucks a year to unlock all the features and include upgrading to the newest versions? Especially if you don't have to lay out the big chunk of money to start off with? It'll be a very small number of folks who complain about it. Most will focus on the "sweet "free" upgrades!" aspect and probably embrace it just like they have with 365. For those with no interest they'll probably keep the one time fee option just like they have with office, and major upgrades (such at the folks sticking with 7 until 10 goes live) will perhaps be an optional update/upgrade for the folks running the subscription version. So yeah, it makes perfect business sense to cater to your average user and not to the small minority. Especially in this case where the small minority isn't making you money anyway since you aren't buying the up to date product.

I find this really hard to swallow. From what I've seen (admitting that's a small sample size), a significant share of businesses are still using XP, and presumably also using older Office versions. I use an XP machine at work, and I saw an XP machine at the local Gander Mountain store (the store being built just last year).

Or maybe you just meant private individuals. I suspect those mirror the business customers. Either way, I think there are plenty of Hawkmoons out there.  

If you were right about people/companies upgrading so assiduously, wouldn't MS make more money by continuing to charge huge, one-time fees for upgrades?

"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2015, 04:15:52 PM »
You've just made a fine argument for the subscription model. If people are going to be perfectly happy using the same software for a decade or more, you can see how Microsoft might want to get more than a few hundred bucks out of it.


I find this really hard to swallow. From what I've seen (admitting that's a small sample size), a significant share of businesses are still using XP, and presumably also using older Office versions. I use an XP machine at work, and I saw an XP machine at the local Gander Mountain store (the store being built just last year).

Or maybe you just meant private individuals. I suspect those mirror the business customers. Either way, I think there are plenty of Hawkmoons out there.  

If you were right about people/companies upgrading so assiduously, wouldn't MS make more money by continuing to charge huge, one-time fees for upgrades?


If you find it tough to swallow, grab some Tabasco, because the data supports it.

While there is still a large installed base of XP machines and older office, it won't be long before a massive breach ends that particular practice. Indeed, the numbers are declining monthly, and hardware doesn't last forever. As mentioned earlier, the security concerns alone invalidate the "keep using it until it works" mindset when it comes to OSes. If a company is using XP (or the embedded version which is still being patched) as part of,  for example, a POS system, then by necessity those machines will no longer run XP when the hardware needs to be replaced. Further, The adoption of new office versions actually accelerated with the change to the subscription model, because incremental updates to the product at a modest subscription fee are not only more cost effective, but are easier for IT departments to manage. A major version release after three years of improvements will require significant resources to transition, while a more modest improvement coming at a faster cadence is easier to roll into an IT department's overall patch management plan.

As for the money making opportunity, the research has shown that under a service-based license, businesses and individual consumers are more likely to upgrade. The larger cost for the traditional licensing/upgrade path doesn't translate into greater profit because there are more holdouts. The amount of people upgrading from Office 2000/2003 to 365 was massive. Years of spaced-out major upgrades didn't persuade those people, but an easy, modest subscription based model coupled with frequent updates being included did persuade them.

As an example, the subscription based offering for sharepoint as a service is not only one major revision ahead of the on-premises product, but also receives security and stability updates at a faster cadence than the on prem version. Many companies are even reporting installed bases of the "click to run" office products shrinking, as more of our large-scale customers' users are choosing to edit documents directly from the web apps versus on the desktop client. This, coupled with SaaS' ability to function in a hybrid cloud, data guarantees and warm-DR sites included in the pricing, and a contractually guaranteed "infinite storage" provision for our Dedicated customers (installed bases larger than about 40k users) have made the service-based offerings very attractive.

Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,500
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2015, 05:52:52 PM »
If you find it tough to swallow, grab some Tabasco, because the data supports it.

While there is still a large installed base of XP machines and older office...

That was one of my main points, so we agree.


Quote
As mentioned earlier, the security concerns alone invalidate the "keep using it until it works" mindset when it comes to OSes.

Then you should alert Hawkmoon, and my employer, that have not yet upgraded all of their machines. Personally, I quit using XP right after the support ended.


Quote
Further, The adoption of new office versions actually accelerated with the change to the subscription model...

Again, tell Hawkmoon. Like I told him, MS went to subscriptions because they weren't getting enough profit from hold-outs like him.


What I was saying was that Hawkmoon represents much more than a "distinctly small minority." They are, at least, a large minority.

Lupinus (I thought) seemed to be saying that subscription makes more sense because people are upgrading so quickly. You're saying the converse, and I agree with you.


"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2015, 06:04:04 PM »
That was one of my main points, so we agree.
You should have read on then.

Quote
Then you should alert Hawkmoon, and my employer, that have not yet upgraded all of their machines. Personally, I quit using XP right after the support ended.
It hasn't been kept a secret. And there is a lot going into when a company upgrades vs stick with what they have.

Quote
Again, tell Hawkmoon. Like I told him, MS went to subscriptions because they weren't getting enough profit from hold-outs like him.
They aren't making money off Hawkmoon, and as long as he decides not to upgrade they wont be making money off him. As Fitz said when they went to a moderate priced subscription instead of a large one time cost the number of people who went for it instead of keeping with their current version went through the flippin roof.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

lee n. field

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,619
  • tinpot megalomaniac, Paulbot, hardware goon
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2015, 06:07:13 PM »
Then you should alert Hawkmoon, and my employer, that have not yet upgraded all of their machines. Personally, I quit using XP right after the support ended..

Chances are, someone has tried and your respective employers are ignoring them.

(fixed the quote)



« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 09:49:44 PM by lee n. field »
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,500
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2015, 06:54:03 PM »
They aren't making money off Hawkmoon, and as long as he decides not to upgrade they wont be making money off him.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.


Quote
As Fitz said when they went to a moderate priced subscription instead of a large one time cost the number of people who went for it instead of keeping with their current version went through the flippin roof.

Obviously.


I don't know what you all thought I was saying, but let me summarize what I already said:

a) There are a lot of hold-outs like Mr. Hawkmoon, getting by on the stuff they got from Microsoft years ago, and no longer pay for.

b) Given a, Microsoft can make more money on a subscription model, rather than simply creating more Hawkmoons by selling stuff outright.

c) The subscription model leads to more regular upgrading.

"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Has anyone tried Windows 10?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2015, 09:28:16 PM »
Yeah, that's exactly what I said.


Obviously.


I don't know what you all thought I was saying, but let me summarize what I already said:

a) There are a lot of hold-outs like Mr. Hawkmoon, getting by on the stuff they got from Microsoft years ago, and no longer pay for.

b) Given a, Microsoft can make more money on a subscription model, rather than simply creating more Hawkmoons by selling stuff outright.

c) The subscription model leads to more regular upgrading.



I'm sorry, i read you wrong. I thought your point was there were more hawkmoons, so MS could make more money catering to said hawkmoons through traditional licensing.

Apologies!
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog