We're a Nation of Laws, But...

[Ben]

Is how Obama started this sentence via the White House Twitter account:

"We’re a nation of laws, but we’re also respecting the fact that we’re a nation of immigrants." —Obama

Spoken at the "Town Hall" hosted by MSNBC and Telemundo. "Town Hall" is in quotes because though the White House called it that, it wasn't open to the public - only the guests of MSNBC and Telmundo were allowed in. Rumor has it that the entire audience was composed of illegals.

My response to the quote is twofold: 1) What does one have to do with the other? and 2) So I guess we're not actually a nation of laws.

[Perd Hapley]

1) What does one have to do with the other?

When the left says "immigrants," they're generally not talking about immigrants; they're talking about illegal aliens.

I think his overall point was that we're a nation of laws, but since he's not an American,* he's not the least bit interested in governing lawfully.


*He's a European socialist with an American birth certificate.

[Scout26]

Whenever the word "but" is used in a sentence, it invalidates everything said/written prior to it.

[Boomhauer]

The politicians, and especially liberals truly believe that laws do not apply to them or their allies...but they damn well apply to us normal folk.

They reguarly break the laws but instead of calling them on it or stopping them no one is willing to stand up to them.

[Ben]

When the left says "immigrants," they're generally not talking about immigrants; they're talking about illegal aliens.

This is true. When they talk about "immigrants", you never seem to see any Canadian immigrants, Japanese immigrants, Swedish immigrants (Hi Viking!), etc. in the room.

[Monkeyleg]

We've reached the point where our government does whatever it wants without fear from the people, and the people are afraid to do anything out of fear of the government.

[RevDisk]

He could have saved time and said "We're not a nation of laws, and sod immigration laws."

I don't quite get why folks want support illegal immigration. I can understand employers wanting cheap near slave labor that don't pay taxes, can't sue and can't speak up about illegal conduct. That makes sense, as evil as it is. Construction bosses who can dump an employee at the ER entrance if the guy saws off his foot or housewife sick of doing the dishes or vacuuming but not wanting to pay legal wages.

Thing is, legal immigration cuts off most of those benefits. Unless they got the H1B visa route, to keep the near slave status.

[Scout26]

~10-20 million new Democrat voters, that's why.  Republicans will be the permanent minority party, never controlling either house of Congress or the White House.

Not that it seems to make a damn bit of difference.

http://blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/mark-kirk-wants-gop-to-wave-the-white-flag-on-dhs-funding/


 

[MicroBalrog]

~10-20 million new Democrat voters, that's why. 

If the GOP cannot package its ideas in a package that can appeal to Latin-American immigrants, then the GOP deserves to be a permanent minority part.

If socialism, oppression, and the welfare state can be marketed, in some way, to any population on the globe, then so can truth, justice, and the American Way.

[Boomhauer]

Tell me which path in life is going to be WAY more popular- a lifetime of welfare gravy where you have to do little or no work, and all you gotta do is vote for the politicians who steal for you, or the other path- a lifetime of hard work and dedication, only to watch what SHOULD be your just rewards taken from you and given to the leeches?

You can't sell "doing the right thing" to people who sure as hell do not want to hear it...not after they've tasted the government cheese and seen that doing the right thing is a lot harder than pushing the easy button.

[MicroBalrog]

Tell me which path in life is going to be WAY more popular- a lifetime of welfare gravy where you have to do little or no work, and all you gotta do is vote for the politicians who steal for you, or the other path- a lifetime of hard work and dedication, only to watch what SHOULD be your just rewards taken from you and given to the leeches?

You can't sell "doing the right thing" to people who sure as hell do not want to hear it...not after they've tasted the government cheese and seen that doing the right thing is a lot harder than pushing the easy button.

And yet most working-age people in the world have jobs of some kind.

There are any number of examples of welfare states being reduced in scope and markets being deregulated, to various degrees of success (Israel is one of them), it's simply untrue that you can't persuade people to cut welfare and taxes. I can count any number of examples where these policies have had electoral success.





[/quote]

[roo_ster]

If the GOP cannot package its ideas in a package that can appeal to Latin-American immigrants, then the GOP deserves to be a permanent minority part.

If socialism, oppression, and the welfare state can be marketed, in some way, to any population on the globe, then so can truth, justice, and the American Way.

Determine all this from your extensive interaction with Mexican border hoppers, eh?

Here are a few observations:
1. Mean border hopper has lower than mean (100) IQ, somewhere around 90.
2. Mean border hopper has a short time horizon.  Partly due to #1, but also a cultural artifact.  Sacrifice now for a better tomorrow does not compute.
3. Mean border jumper comes from a culture fine with a Big Man and his cronies ruling the roost and doling out favors to buddies and paying off the masses.  The usual "top & bottom against the middle" setup.  This means the Mexican middle class is tiny relative to the size of America's middle class over most its history.
4. No matter their religious or social conservatism, almost all vote for the party that promises the biggest bag of "gimme."

For the GOP to appeal to the majority of latin americans in the USA, it would have to stop being the GOP and become the Democrat Party.

[Pb]

Hispanic voters are usually hard left, despising free-market capitalism and gun rights.  As roo_ster said, Hispanic culture is very tolerant of political corruption, as long as it is "their" party that is corrupt. The GOP is committing suicide as a national power... the reason they don't seem to mind is that big business is salivating on using immigrant labor to drive down our wages.

The Democratic Party is very envious of the PRI party in mexico and hopes to emulate it... so they can be as rich, and power mad as they want and the voters won't care:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_Revolutionary_Party

[MicroBalrog]

Determine all this from your extensive interaction with Mexican border hoppers, eh?

If only there was some way to learn about the nature of man that doesn't revolve around personal interaction with every group of humans that exists.

[roo_ster]

If only there was some way to learn about the nature of man that doesn't revolve around personal interaction with every group of humans that exists.

I suspected you had zero actual interaction.  I would rate your experience with with our hispanic population on par with the experience my neighbors in Minnesota had with black Americans.  Wait, that is not fair.  They had seen actual, live black men & women at a distance, once, when they went to Minneapolis.  So--obviously--they were experts on race relations and more than willing to pontificate on the proper policing of inner cities. 

Do not make the mistake in assuming that members of an ethnic or racial group you have never met are like you.  They have motivations dissimilar to yours and they may not react as you would to incentives.

[MicroBalrog]

Either liberty and individual rights are a universally applicable concept, or liberty and individual rights are totally worthless.

[roo_ster]

Either liberty and individual rights are a universally applicable concept, or liberty and individual rights are totally worthless.

Horse hockey.  They are worth something to those who value them.  It is pretty obvious rather large groups who do not. 

Liberty and individual sovereignty are concepts that evolved from particluar ethnicities and cultures.  They are no more universal than blue eyes or female genital mutilation.

[MicroBalrog]

Liberty and individual sovereignty are concepts that evolved from particluar ethnicities and cultures.  They are no more universal than blue eyes or female genital mutilation.

Moral truths are either universal - and then can be taught to anyone - or there are no moral truths.

[RoadKingLarry]

Ever try to teach something to someone  who doesn't want to learn? Or, worse yet someone who has been indoctrinated against what you want them to learn? And while attempting to teach them the truth the pupil is simultaneously being "taught" the opposite of your lessen with reinforcing government handouts?

[Perd Hapley]

So, is roo_ster really arguing against moral absolutes, and Microbalrog in favor of them?

'Cause my mind just ran out into the snow, screaming and removing its clothing.

[Ron]

Either liberty and individual rights are a universally applicable concept, or liberty and individual rights are totally worthless.
Moral truths are either universal - and then can be taught to anyone - or there are no moral truths.

Universally applied or worthless, says who?

Liberty, rights and moral truth may be universal truths but so is human free will to dismiss, ignore or work against them.

Thousands of years of educated and Christian culture worked out a world view of reality that developed the western world with its liberty and prosperity. The western world is a bubble and folks who didn't grow up in that bubble do not see things like we do nor do they even define the terms (liberty, moral etc.) the same.

Allowing large numbers of folks to migrate into our nation who not only didn't grow up steeped in our understanding of things but hold views antagonistic to our founding principles is cultural suicide.

Are you in favor of unfettered immigration and the granting of rights of citizenship from your all neighbors into Israel?

[Boomhauer]

Micro, you don't live here, you've never even BEEN here. Hell, you aren't even grasping this conversation. You are talking theoretical, and we are talking practical and the real world.

It's nice and all to talk about universal truths and teaching it, and it is indeed a very good thing to spread the word about freedom and liberty and all the great *expletive deleted*it. But there are plenty who will actively reject it when the short term rewards are greater- yes there are people who will voluntarily put themselves into bondage in exchange for seemingly great rewards. That is the crux of the issue that you should be talking about here- HOW do you educate people to reject the vast government cheese instead? Because I've tried to convince people and most do not want to hear it- the siren call of welfare is pretty damn strong.

[MicroBalrog]

Are you in favor of unfettered immigration and the granting of rights of citizenship from your all neighbors into Israel?

I would certainly prefer it to the current situation with immigrants in Israel.

[MicroBalrog]

So, is roo_ster really arguing against moral absolutes, and Microbalrog in favor of them?

'Cause my mind just ran out into the snow, screaming and removing its clothing.

I have never been opposed to the idea of moral absolutes. We just disagree on what the moral absolutes are.

[roo_ster]

Moral truths are either universal - and then can be taught to anyone - or there are no moral truths.

Perhaps "universal" doesn't mean what you think it means?

Moral Truth: Liberty
Liberty, the idea that folk can do as they will.  Universal?  Not so much.  Pretty much every society has limited the liberty of children or the immature.  Also, they limit the liberty of folk to act against children, even if the children consent.  Children do not have what it takes in their brains to have much chance of using their volition responsibly.  Children can cause damage from ignorance & inexperience.  Adults who take advantage of children can horrifically damage those children because children again do not have what it takes upstairs to deny those taking advantage of them.

So, two examples of the non-universality of liberty already.  Age/cognitive insufficiency and evil.