Author Topic: December 7th, 2008  (Read 1374 times)

garrettwc

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December 7th, 2008
« on: October 25, 2006, 07:07:35 PM »
December 7, 2008, began inauspiciously.

At 0753 at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii, the attack that had triggered America's entry into World War II, sixty-seven years before, was ceremoniously commemorated, an honor guard, taps, a 21-gun salute, the bugle's notes and the rifles' crack drifting across the bay to the USS Arizona memorial, where Admiral Arthur Peterson, USN Ret., laid a wreath in memory of the sailors sleeping below, one of whom was his own grandfather.

On the West coast it was 1053, and in Washington D.C. it was one fifty-three in the afternoon, 1353 military time.

In 2006 America, tired of War in Iraq, had elected Democrats to modest majorities in both houses of Congress. Representative Nancy Pelosi became Speaker of the House, third in line for the presidency. In the spring of 2007, on a narrow, party-line vote, Congress, led by Senators John Kerry and Ted Kennedy and Barbara Boxer refused to authorize spending to continue the war in Iraq, and set September 30, 2007, as the deadline for complete withdrawal of American troops.

President Bush spoke to the country, to the American forces in Iraq, to those who had been there, and to the Iraqi people, to apologize for the short-sightedness and irresponsibility of the American congress and the tragedy he believed would follow after leaving task of nurturing a representative and stable government in Iraq half done, his voice choked, tears running down his stoic face, a betrayal of emotion for which he was resoundingly criticized and denounced in much of America's media.


rest of the story is here: http://users.adelphia.net/~thofab/kraft.htm

mak

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2006, 07:56:20 PM »
I scanned the rest of the story and it was.......fanciful. I will not say we wont get hit again. But a nuclear strike from jointly designed Iranian/North Korean cruise missiles? I will go for some wild scenarios but this whole mushroom cloud weapons of mass destruction thing does not make sense. Why? Because GOD HAVE MERCY ON ANY NATION THAT LIGHTS ONE OFF OVER AN AMERICAN CITY; WE WILL INCINERATE THEM! I cannot capitalize bold italicize underline that enough to even come close to how totally and absolutely F'd they will be. It will make the death star seem like.....a kids movie. Even a mildly progressive liberal like me will hammer the button down with a big smile on my face- and so would Nancy and any of those despicable dems. I guarantee it. 

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2006, 09:24:12 PM »
Quote
I scanned the rest of the story and it was.......fanciful. I will not say we wont get hit again. But a nuclear strike from jointly designed Iranian/North Korean cruise missiles? I will go for some wild scenarios but this whole mushroom cloud weapons of mass destruction thing does not make sense. Why? Because GOD HAVE MERCY ON ANY NATION THAT LIGHTS ONE OFF OVER AN AMERICAN CITY; WE WILL INCINERATE THEM! I cannot capitalize bold italicize underline that enough to even come close to how totally and absolutely F'd they will be. It will make the death star seem like.....a kids movie. Even a mildly progressive liberal like me will hammer the button down with a big smile on my face- and so would Nancy and any of those despicable dems. I guarantee it.
Problem is, if the deed were done by an abstract and non-localized terrorist organization then there wouldn't be any nation to strike back at.  That's why it is so incredibly dangerous to allow a rogue nation like Iran or Iraq acquire nuclear weapons.  Iran (or the former Iraq) as a nation couldn't attack the US and get away with.  But they could equip an organization like Al Queda or Hezbolla with their WMD and have them perpetrate the attack.  If Iran tried something like that they probably would get away with it.  And they know it.

That's why the US couldn't take the chance that Saddam still had his WMD.  That's why we can't take the chance of letting Iran acquire WMD.  North Korea... well, I'm not so sure about them.  Probably better for our own survival not to risk it with them either.

mak

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2006, 09:28:59 PM »
Well....let's just kill everyone on earth except us good ole boys and then there wont be anything to worry about. It's the only way to be sure.

Sindawe

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2006, 09:33:59 PM »
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Well....let's just kill everyone on earth except us good ole boys and then there wont be anything to worry about. It's the only way to be sure.

This...individual...grows tiresome.  Do we have an "Ignore" button with this software?
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2006, 09:34:52 PM »
Oh, I'm sure it's safe to leave alone the 99.8% of the globe that hasn't shown hostilities towards us or our allies.  It's only those nations that persist in threatening us that we ought to deal with.

There's a reason we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan and not, say, Bangladesh, Argentina, Norway, or Zimbabwe.

mak

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2006, 09:42:15 PM »
That nuclear genie was let out of the bottle along time ago because of corporate greed and soviet stupidity. Back in the 50's anti-nuclear activist's were not about protecting the environment- they were about protecting civil rights. They saw police states and pre-emptive war as the only response to proliferation. They were right. Now we have a problem that cant be solved.

Art Eatman

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2006, 03:39:19 AM »
Don't you just love the absence of rational thought that's built in to the phrase "corporate greed"?  But maybe corporations have no people working for them?  Only greed-programmed robots?

Be that as it may, I see no evidence of any corporate activity in North Korea's or Iran's desire to have nukes, and it's that desire for military power against perceived enemies that drives the whole deal.

Leaders such as Kim Jong Il or Ahmenibajad define "Enemy" as, "Anybody who disagrees with me and won't obey."

Art
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roo_ster

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2006, 04:49:08 AM »
Sorry, the loonies can't blame Nork nukes on Halliburton or other <shudder>corporations<shudder>.

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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garrettwc

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2006, 04:54:32 AM »
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Because GOD HAVE MERCY ON ANY NATION THAT LIGHTS ONE OFF OVER AN AMERICAN CITY; WE WILL INCINERATE THEM!
That's not necessarily true.

There are those who seek the highest office in the land who could never find enough motivation to take such action. Folks who believe the UN should be in charge of everything, and that if we subjugate ourselves and sit quietly in the corner, everyone will eventually leave us alone.

Ezekiel

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2006, 07:26:47 AM »
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There's a reason we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan and not, say, Bangladesh, Argentina, Norway, or Zimbabwe.

It has a lot to do with oil.
Zeke

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2006, 08:01:24 AM »
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There's a reason we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan and not, say, Bangladesh, Argentina, Norway, or Zimbabwe.

It has a lot to do with oil.

Balderdash.  Oil, like money, is fungible.  It waouls be far, far, FAR cheaper to simply buy it on the open market than tto wage a war over it.  You only do that when your access is completely cut off - see: Japan, 1941.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Ezekiel

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2006, 09:52:56 AM »
Polite retort: I think the inherent point our current administration's activities attempt to make is that -- if we do not "secure" the area -- oil will be cut off.

The is no other rational explanation for the position, and actions, of BushCo, Inc.

Quote
There's a reason we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan and not, say, Bangladesh, Argentina, Norway, or Zimbabwe.

It has a lot to do with oil.

Balderdash.  Oil, like money, is fungible.  It waouls be far, far, FAR cheaper to simply buy it on the open market than tto wage a war over it.  You only do that when your access is completely cut off - see: Japan, 1941.
Zeke

CAnnoneer

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2006, 10:52:01 AM »
An eye for an eye.
Vengeance is mine.
I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

Art Eatman

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2006, 03:38:09 AM »
The present leadership of Iran and Venezuela have already publicly stated that the availability of their oil is a political matter.  IOW, "You don't please me, park your car and walk."  We already know from years past that Iran wants to export its revolution to Saudi Arabia, as well as Iraq and Kuwait--which would add to Iran's control of oil supplies.  That ain't maunderings of my dementia, either.  It's historical public record.

Industrial societies need oil the same as you and I need water.  Oil has been that important since Old Man Benz fired up his Put-Chugga and Orville & Wilbur did their thing.  It's even more important, today, since thousands of consumer products come from the petro-chemical folks work.  Look at how much of your surroundings contain plastic.

Over-simplified, we're in Iraq in order to be able to project force into an unstable reason.  The implication of our presence is, "Provide an orderly flow of oil into the marketplace, or else.  We'll keep order."  That's separate from the wisdom of HOW we're attempting to keep order.  Totally separate. 

The absence of an effort of force projection gives a Nigeria situation.  If you haven't been paying attention to the events there, you're way behind on the learning/understanding curve.

My opinion is that we've screwed up the "how to" in Iraq.  But, if we pull out, we free up Iran to begin de facto control of southern Iraq and then, some years on, Kuwait.  From Kuwait, some years on, they get into Saudi Arabia.  It's a great big chess game, and most other countries' leaders are better at it than ours.  All you gotta do is look back at the politics of Vietnam.  Not the fighting; we won that, every time.  But we lost the political war.

Real-world praphrased conversation that happened at Versailles, between a U.S. Colonel and an NVA Colonel at the Paris Peace Talks:  US:  "I don't understand.  We won every battle.  We beat you every time."  NVA:  "Yes, but that's irrelevant."

We're short-term thinkers in the U.S.  Instant gratification.  "Bring the Boys home by Christmas."  It's hard for us to deal with folks for whom a short term is a generation.

"May you live in interesting times."

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Art Eatman

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Re: December 7th, 2008
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2006, 03:49:52 AM »
December 7, 1941.  Clear and cold in Austin, Texas.  Full moon.  Great-uncles Vern and Anderson Witherspoon were down from Hereford, Texas, visiting my grandparents.  Listening to the radio, the news caused quiet, concerned conversation about the future.

Radio programs of that era included the Gracie Fields show, live from London.  You could hear the Nazi bombers' engines, and hear bombs exploding.  There was "Hawaii Calls" with its intro-music of "Aloha Oe" and a few GIs able to say, "Hi, Mom."  News from H.V. Kaltenborn ("Ah, there's good news, TONIGHT!") or Walter Winchell.

My father went into the Combat Engineers and wound up with Patton's 3rd Army.  He was first at the Remagen Bridge, if you remember your war movies.  My step-father flew B-24s out of Henderson Field on Guadalcanal--"We used them for everything from pursuit planes to dive-bombers."

You needed ration coupons for gasoline, tires, sugar, shoes and butter.

Somebody wanna try to tell me, persuasively, about "Hard times", nowadays?  Hey, take a chance on being awarded the Royal Order of the Rigid Digit. Cheesy 

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.