Author Topic: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program  (Read 30699 times)

makattak

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2015, 08:06:32 AM »
Haha, what do you think would've happened had Britain taken a hard line at that stage?  Suddenly all those guys running for their lives at Dunkirk would've become magically unbeatable?

It's a ridiculous analogy that has zero application to this.

No, but the Nazis would have suffered some significant losses had they had to fight Czechoslovakia. Instead, the other countries carved them up to save "Peace in our time!"

They threw an ally under the bus to get an agreement that wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

Yes. ZERO application to this...
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Ron

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #126 on: April 03, 2015, 09:14:45 AM »
Good, this thread didn't get closed.

How about we don't attack people (like DeSelby) personally any more and just argue against their positions? You know, Armed Polite Society like and all.

I'm pretty annoyed the other thread got nuked because of personal attacks.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

TommyGunn

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #127 on: April 03, 2015, 09:53:11 AM »
Haha, what do you think would've happened had Britain taken a hard line at that stage?  Suddenly all those guys running for their lives at Dunkirk would've become magically unbeatable?

It's a ridiculous analogy that has zero application to this.
The analogy is between the naivete of Chamberlain and  Obama.  No analogy is perfect but this is pretty good if you are capable of expanding your intellect enough to comprehend it.
A dubious proposition at best I know..... =D
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2015, 10:09:17 AM »
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/04/iran-deal-kerry-flawed-negotiations-close-116623.html#.VR6bDo6qkfx

Here's an interesting article in the Politico by a former UN weapons inspector in Iraq.  Based on his unique experience he says there's very little chance we'll be able to verify compliance in Iran.

The author lays out how Iraq paid off major international players to manipulate the UN, sabotage the inspections, and neuter the enforcement efforts.  The biggest recipient of Iraqi bribery was Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, who is a key player in the current negotiations with Iran.

It's deja vu all over again.  And we never learn.

MechAg94

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2015, 10:24:42 AM »
We have tried negotiating about agreements and verification with the Soviets and with North Korea also.  I don't think it has worked well (ever).  Germany was under treaty restrictions after WWI also.  It didn't work well then either.

The agreement is meaningless if one side has no intention acting if the agreement is violated. 
Verification is pointless if the country is putting effort into bypassing the limits. 

Putting myself in the shoes of a smaller country, I can see getting nukes simply for the deterrent effect.  However, Iran has a history of funding and supporting terrorism and specifically terrorism against Israel.  I have no faith that they only want nukes for a deterrent.  That said I doubt we will be able to prevent them from getting it indefinitely. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2015, 10:26:30 AM »
Another thought:  With Iran and North Korea having or trying to build nukes and testing ICBM missiles of one type or another, it makes you consider the US efforts to build anti-ballistic missile systems and all the people who were opposed to that. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

SADShooter

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2015, 12:12:51 PM »
Another thought:  With Iran and North Korea having or trying to build nukes and testing ICBM missiles of one type or another, it makes you consider the US efforts to build anti-ballistic missile systems and all the people who were opposed to that, particularly President Obama, having actively subverted the program for a limited strategic objective and now putting us in a weaker position

FTFY.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2015, 03:28:14 PM »
Iran is already accusing the US of lying about what was agreed to.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/iran-accuses-u-s-of-lying-about-new-nuke-agreement/

Ben

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2015, 03:48:41 PM »
Iran is already accusing the US of lying about what was agreed to.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/iran-accuses-u-s-of-lying-about-new-nuke-agreement/

The French appear to be unhappy as well. Regardless of being pro or con "the deal", I think it was reckless of Obama to make the big announcement yesterday about "the framework". For those who don't like George W Bush, a comparison would be, "mission accomplished". Announcing "a deal" now, and well before the late June signing (if it goes through), simply leaves the administration wide open, both strategically and politically.

As a Middle East expert said yesterday, a week is an eternity in that region, let alone two months. There's a lot of monkey wrenches that can and will be thrown into the mix between now and June.
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MechAg94

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2015, 05:59:25 PM »
Iran is already accusing the US of lying about what was agreed to.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/iran-accuses-u-s-of-lying-about-new-nuke-agreement/
The sad thing is that I don't trust the Obama Administration to tell the truth at all so I am inclined to believe what Iran is saying.  That sucks.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ron

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #135 on: April 03, 2015, 08:22:56 PM »
The sad thing is that I don't trust the Obama Administration to tell the truth at all so I am inclined to believe what Iran is saying.  That sucks.

Right there with you, we have an Orwellian government/media complex that cannot be trusted, including FOX.

That said, Obama obviously doesn't have "flyover country's" best interest at heart. We are more an enemy to him than Iran IMHO. Actions speak louder than words. He hates western civilization and the USA has adopted or had thrust upon it the mantle of being the apotheosis of the western world. He's transforming that and how.

In the world of ME politics, Bibi actually has a greater motivation to see "flyover country" prevail in the USA over Obama than any other ME player, as that is where the strongest support of the state of Israel exists in the USA.

Iran is a bit schizophrenic politically at the grass roots level so making nice with them might not be as crazy as it looks to us on the right. There are reform minded folks there who are Muslim and not insane. Unfortunately they just have very little official power or influence.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

De Selby

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2015, 08:35:20 PM »
The key problem here is this:  not liking US policy on Iran is one thing.  Thinking at Obama is wrong about Iran, however, does not mean that supporting a foreign government to infiltrate America's executive and undermine its efforts is an acceptable thing.

I can just imagine the reactions if some peaceniks were spying on Israel on behalf of Saudi Arabia and caught trying to undermine US-Israeli relations.   Do you think anyone here would be saying "well - the president was endangering Americans with his policy - we should support them!"

If only Benedict Arnold had been a little more clever, he might've been a hero today :(.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #137 on: April 03, 2015, 08:53:46 PM »
The sad thing is that I don't trust the Obama Administration to tell the truth at all so I am inclined to believe what Iran is saying.  That sucks.
Does it really matter which side is lying?

We're being asked to believe that the US and Iran can cooperate successfully on monitoring Iran's entire  nuclear industry.  And not just asked to believe it, but to bet the security of the free world on it.  Yet they can't even cooperate on a simple 4 page summary of their agreement.

Ron

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #138 on: April 03, 2015, 10:15:35 PM »
The key problem here is this:  not liking US policy on Iran is one thing.  Thinking at Obama is wrong about Iran, however, does not mean that supporting a foreign government to infiltrate America's executive and undermine its efforts is an acceptable thing.

The reality is allies spy on each other.

Israel spies on the USA, stipulated.

The USA spies on Israel and as a matter of fact Obama told the world our intelligence about Israel having nukes.

What nation over there is potentially more aligned with our success and best interests? Who at least shares some cultural and economic values with us?

Trading in Israel for Iran is flippin crazy.

I'm OK with dumping Saudi Arabia as a "friend" as there is nothing we share in common with them other than the oil market. Our so called Saudi friends are the source of a large percentage of our problems. Our people have not been intertwined with the Saudis like we have been with Israel.

Iran doesn't even aspire to reach the level of accord with us that the Saudis have reached.

Like it or not we have sided with Zionism and Israel because frankly it is a better (more rational) choice than any Muslim nation out there.



 






For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

De Selby

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #139 on: April 03, 2015, 10:40:12 PM »
Again, how is talks with Iran "trading in"?  Also, the idea that a state founded on the principles of Leninism and run based on religious laws is "a place of shared values" is just laughable.

If anyone traded here, bibi did - he risked his alliance with America for bullheaded and ill considered domestic policies.  Not smart to actively subvert your patron.

Also, the fact that "allies" (again, not a defense to espionage) spy on each other doesn't mean that allies let it go.  Pakistan is an ally, for example - I'm sure we'd just let it slide if they were in as well.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

birdman

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #140 on: April 04, 2015, 11:41:54 AM »
Another thought:  With Iran and North Korea having or trying to build nukes and testing ICBM missiles of one type or another, it makes you consider the US efforts to build anti-ballistic missile systems and all the people who were opposed to that. 

This.
Consider this:
1. no one, and I mean NO ONE builds a missile that can reach any farther than it NEEDS to. 
2. No one needs, wants, or builds a missile that can reach to a country it DOESNT want to deter or attack
(Both of the above because missiles get exponentially harder the farther you want them to go)
3. Both NK and Iran ALREADY HAVE missiles that can loft a nuke (or conventional) warhead to anywhere in their neighbors, or even regional potential enemy's countries. (Eg anywhere in the ME including Israel for Iran, anywhere in Japan or Okinawa or SK for NK)
4. Both NK and Iran are building AND TESTING a missiles with a range to hit BEYOND a anywhere in Europe (for Iran) and beyond anywhere in Russian, China, or SE Asia (for NK) and to a range that hits the US.

Therefore, the country they either want to attack or deter from attacking, is the US.  PERIOD. And deter us from attacking is the BEST POSSIBLE CASE.

Considering BOTHA countries have expressed desire to expand their territories by force, AND both are currently being suppressed from doing so by various international (mainly US) efforts, it is not just reasonable, but also obvious that the one and only reason both countries are building long range missiles AND ANY SORT OF NUCLEAR PROGRAM is to deter the US from enforcing continued suppression or responding to their agression via  conventional or nuclear means.  PERIOD.

Iran in particular wants, IMHO, long range missile and nuclear weapon for the same reason South Africa did...to be able to effectively blackmail the USA.  Think about this one, if they have the ability to hit the USA, if Israel started messing with them, they don't need to deter Israel (who might not fear a single nuke, and be willing to trade one part of one city for ALL of Iran) they can threaten the USA with a single one (since we would be absolutely UNwilling to trade one part of one city for all of Iran).

This is the problem with these agreements, the purported result is: 1. Absolutely not what the target country wants (thus, incentive to cheat), 2. Doesn't provide any negative consequences to cheating (other than extension of the current status quo), and 3. Provides a positive benefit -until- cheating is discovered.
So if you assume Iran is irrational, they would obvious sign, then cheat, AND if you assume they are rational, they will sign, and then cheat, because WORST CASE the cheating is discovered BEFORE a they get a bomb, and they then revert back to the current status quo, after a period of "better".  And that is the absolute worst case.
Next worst, and LEAST worse (for them)they cheat, and get bomb, and it's discovered after the fact, at which point, the status quo becomes difficult to revert to as now they have a deterrent.

So basically, there is ZERO incentive for Iran to do anything not on the path to a bomb, and this agreement REGARDLESS of their actual behavior at present or future, is a benefit to them, and bad for us.

agricola

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #141 on: April 04, 2015, 04:56:18 PM »
Like it or not we have sided with Zionism and Israel because frankly it is a better (more rational) choice than any Muslim nation out there.

It really, really, really isnt - and if the American people were as close to the Israelis as some claim, there would be a loud and clear message for what is going on now to stop.

 







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MechAg94

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2015, 08:54:09 PM »
It really, really, really isnt - and if the American people were as close to the Israelis as some claim, there would be a loud and clear message for what is going on now to stop.
Please restate what exactly you think is going on.  I don't trust that you and I are on the same page as far as that goes.
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MechAg94

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #143 on: April 05, 2015, 09:03:47 PM »
The key problem here is this:  not liking US policy on Iran is one thing.  Thinking at Obama is wrong about Iran, however, does not mean that supporting a foreign government to infiltrate America's executive and undermine its efforts is an acceptable thing.

I can just imagine the reactions if some peaceniks were spying on Israel on behalf of Saudi Arabia and caught trying to undermine US-Israeli relations.   Do you think anyone here would be saying "well - the president was endangering Americans with his policy - we should support them!"

If only Benedict Arnold had been a little more clever, he might've been a hero today :(.
The problem with your view is that you view undermining "Obama" as the same as undermining "The US".  That isn't really true.  We don't have a monarchy.  President Obama and his own administration have done more to undermine themselves over the last 6 years for this incident to be more than just a blip.  It was a PR move more than anything.  The Obama Administration's past conduct with regard to foreign relations is the reason why few but the Obama Administration want any deal with Iran.

You also seem to have this flawed view that our disagreement with Obama's policies means we are in bed with traitors.  People like you are why our Founders defined "traitor" in the Constitution to avoid labeling the normal debate of free citizens as traitorous.  Your view is what leads to mobs dragging people off to the guillotine.  
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roo_ster

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #144 on: April 05, 2015, 09:54:02 PM »
Note on this thread's drift between sub-topics:
I think I can state that I have been both in support of and in opposition to--at/on some point--every APSer who has posted more than once in this thread.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Scout26

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #145 on: April 05, 2015, 10:01:50 PM »
The problem with your view is that you view undermining "Obama" as the same as undermining "The US".  That isn't really true.  

Quoted for Truth.

Obama has not been forth coming with Congress regarding the negotiations with Iran.

And DeSelby, get off your goddamn high horse and STFU about Israel spying on us.  IIRC, it wasn't that long ago we had to apologize to most of the leaders of the Free World for NSA'ing their cell-phone calls.   Just because the rest of us refuse to get our knickers in twist about friends spying on friends (again, like we've NEVER done that.... ;/ ;/ ;/), that horse is dead, you can stop flaying it.  It's tender enough.

And I'll point out a couple things that most of the Iran Apologists in this thread are missing.  1)  It's permissible (and could be construed as preferred) for Muslims to lie when dealing with "non-believers".  2)  The rulers of Iran are "Fundie" Mullahs.  These *expletive deleted*ers are the "True Believers" in the Koran.  They aren't playing Regional or Realpolitik.  They believe they are on a mission to restore the Caliphate.  And that will require the destruction of Israel.  (And yes, the Iranians are probably closer to us in many respects then Israel.  We had our chance to help with a "Persian Spring" back in 2009, but Obama fumbled that as well.)  Be that as it may, once the nukes start flying back and forth in ME, the Butcher's Bill will be unlike any since.  (And yes, Iran may lob a couple at Saudi Arabia, because Arab v. Persian).

And yes, Germany was goddamn weak prior to WWII.  And German troops had orders to withdraw at the least sign of resistance when they re-occupied the Rhineland.  Neither France nor Britain said "Boo".   Hitler was about to be coup'd in his etat by the Generals when he went toe-to-toe with France and Britain over the Sudetenland.  Chamberlain folding like a cheap suit gave Hitler not only all of Czechoslovakia, but also made him Coup proof.  At any point some resistance could have prevented the massive bloodletting that was WWII.  But everyone was so afraid of standing up and risking a small war that we got a giant war instead.

This timidity is what kills millions of people.  Standing up to evil saves lives.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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De Selby

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #146 on: April 05, 2015, 10:19:20 PM »
Scout, you entirely missed the point on spying - while all countries do it, I can think of none where helping and supporting a foreign power to spy isn't considered a crime.  And in this context, believing that the patriotic thing to do is support Bibi gives lie to the claim that partisan politics are somehow more patriotic on one side than the other.

Israel is actively trying to start a war between the us and Iran.  Making excuses for them is no better than any apologia for foreigners any democrat has ever spouted.

As for Iranian policy, this seems to be a picture perfect case of realpolitik over dreaming.  They may be religious nuts, but unlike ISIS they seem to be advancing the security and technology of their country. 

Your expounding on the German example just shows how ridiculous a comparison it is.  There is no scenario where Iran conquers the world here.  The only expansion they've undertaken has been with direct US support.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #147 on: April 05, 2015, 10:38:23 PM »
Scout, you entirely missed the point on spying - while all countries do it, I can think of none where helping and supporting a foreign power to spy isn't considered a crime.  And in this context, believing that the patriotic thing to do is support Bibi gives lie to the claim that partisan politics are somehow more patriotic on one side than the other.
So who in this thread is supportive of spying on the U.S.? Or thinks supporting Bibi/Israel is patriotic? You brought that up earlier in the thread and I never saw quite why.  
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2015, 10:05:00 AM »
never mind
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 10:32:26 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Scout26

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Re: US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program
« Reply #149 on: April 06, 2015, 02:57:51 PM »
Scout, you entirely missed the point on spying - while all countries do it, I can think of none where helping and supporting a foreign power to spy isn't considered a crime.  And in this context, believing that the patriotic thing to do is support Bibi gives lie to the claim that partisan politics are somehow more patriotic on one side than the other.


That's quite a leap in logic there.  Believing that supporting the Israeli position, even though they spyed on us (or maybe the just the negotiations or maybe they got they info they passed onto Congress from the French, as has been rumoured) =/= treason.    I do see most people here recognizing that we live in the real world.   Oh, and what about Obama violating US law by not keeping Congress informed as to the negotiations?  That's perfectly fine, I take it?

Israel is actively trying to start a war between the us and Iran.  Making excuses for them is no better than any apologia for foreigners any democrat has ever spouted.


Actually Israel's policy would appear to be NOT wanting to be under Islamic Nuclear threat.

As for Iranian policy, this seems to be a picture perfect case of realpolitik over dreaming.  They may be religious nuts, but unlike ISIS they seem to be advancing the security and technology of their country.  

No, they want to advance their version of Islam across the region and eventually the world.  A world sans any Jews (or any/many Christians for that matter).  If it takes nuking Israel to achieve that, they will.  They aren't much different then the head slashing co-religionists, just minus the you-tube channel.


Your expounding on the German example just shows how ridiculous a comparison it is.  There is no scenario where Iran conquers the world here.  The only expansion they've undertaken has been with direct US support.

But that is their ultimate goal.   Again, they think Islam (their flavor) should rule the world.   Gaining nukes is merely a step in that process.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.