Debt's too high - won't pay

[Firethorn]

I borrow 20 bucks from you for a bunch of Axe. It doesn't get me hot women.

I'm mad because Axe said it did.

Your fault? Do i suddenly not owe you the 20 bucks anymore?

Your analogy fails because, of critical differences:
1.  Axe doesn't promise 'hot women' to the point of it counting as fraud.
2.  The amounts of money involved differ by orders of magnitude.

Like I said before, I'm not giving these people a free ride.  In order for me to 'write off' their debt, I'd require them to essentially declare bankruptcy AND show evidence of fraud/failure on the part of the college or university.

Declaring bankruptcy is a traditional way to declare that you can't pay our debts.  In this case, it'd be showing that despite your shiny new degree, you can't find employment befitting of somebody with such a degree.  Such as the graduates of a nursing college that found out that their degree wasn't worth crap because the university lost it's accreditation.  That the course of instruction didn't cover what the hospitals required.

A degree in nursing isn't supposed to be a 'worthless' one.  It's supposed to be an 'up and coming' career field.

[French G.]

Due diligence? You try to ascertain if a car or a house is worth what you are paying before you sign up right? Do you buy your house based on what you make now, or expect to make? The concept of professional student is dubious at best. If you can't pay your bills, don't go to school. If you can't ever expect to pay your loan bills, don't sign the line. If you do sign, honor your contract. If you saw an ad for Corinthian schools and still signed my buddy P.T. wants to talk to you. Stupid should hurt.

[Firethorn]

Due diligence? You try to ascertain if a car or a house is worth what you are paying before you sign up right? Do you buy your house based on what you make now, or expect to make? The concept of professional student is dubious at best. If you can't pay your bills, don't go to school. If you can't ever expect to pay your loan bills, don't sign the line. If you do sign, honor your contract. If you saw an ad for Corinthian schools and still signed my buddy P.T. wants to talk to you. Stupid should hurt.

1.  Due diligence isn't 100%, especially against dedicated fraud. 
2.  Sometimes things happen.  I paid for a home inspector when I bought my place.  I went through it carefully, read the report.  Due diligence, right?  Didn't prevent me from having to replace the boiler because of a leak the first winter.  There have been people who bought a place only to find out that the soil was toxic and they couldn't live there.  Another I read about is looking to sell, not 3 months after purchasing, because he can't get internet there, and he works from home as a programmer.  He had assurances from two different ISPs - Cable and Telephone, that they could provide service before he bought.

[Perd Hapley]

Analogies are useless when there are crucial differences.

I borrow 20 bucks from you for a bunch of Axe. It doesn't get me hot women.

I'm mad because Axe said it did.

Your fault? Do i suddenly not owe you the 20 bucks anymore?

Or when that golden 2x4 don't get me past the pearly gates.

[lupinus]

Due diligence? You try to ascertain if a car or a house is worth what you are paying before you sign up right? Do you buy your house based on what you make now, or expect to make? The concept of professional student is dubious at best. If you can't pay your bills, don't go to school. If you can't ever expect to pay your loan bills, don't sign the line. If you do sign, honor your contract. If you saw an ad for Corinthian schools and still signed my buddy P.T. wants to talk to you. Stupid should hurt.

So an 18 year old kid should pay for a school on the minimum wage they make flipping burgers, instead of what their profession is going to pay? Good luck with that when a semester of school costs almost as much as they'll make in a year at McDonalds.

We're not talking about someone who perpetually goes to school until the loans run out, but folks whose school committed fraud. Key word there. So either discharge their loan and let the school pay it directly, let the school be sued for all the damages (loan, living expenses, etc.) incurred as a result of the schools fraud, or if nothing else let it be discharged under normal bankruptcy conditions like anyone else who was defrauded and can not collect/pay their bills as a result of that.

[KD5NRH]

Well, welcome to the "goofy looking bastard with a hot wife" club.

That was just the third date.  She's not off the potentials list, but there are some things in her life that she needs to deal with before it's even a consideration.

She's got a bit over a year before this one's back in the country so she might need to hurry a bit:


I think this one just goes to the movies with me for the popcorn:


Planning to see this one tomorrow, though unfortunately without the Corvette.

[sumpnz]

So they're decent on the hot scale.  But where are they on the crazy scale?  Remember, if they're a 9 or 10 hot, and less than a 3 or 4 crazy you're in the tranny zone.

[brimic]

That was just the third date.  She's not off the potentials list, but there are some things in her life that she needs to deal with before it's even a consideration.

She's got a bit over a year before this one's back in the country so she might need to hurry a bit:


I think this one just goes to the movies with me for the popcorn:


Planning to see this one tomorrow, though unfortunately without the Corvette.

Danger!!!! This post is on a public forum! Do you have a death wish?

[Tuco]

Analogies are useless when there are crucial differences.

I borrow 20 bucks from you for a bunch of Axe. It doesn't get me hot women.

I'm mad because Axe said it did.

Your fault? Do i suddenly not owe you the 20 bucks anymore?

It is my liability when Axe and I have arranged for you to contact me for loans to purchase their product;
It is my liability when I have a manned office at the Axe sales location to process your loan application;
It is my liability when I have full disclosure as to the intended use of the money (in effect, a secured loan);
It is my liability when, after the above, Axe took my money from you and then sold you a bottle of piss with a squirt of dish soap.

Look, I'm not suggesting that defrauding financial institutions is fair or right. I am suggesting that this situation may be justifiable if it (fat chance) results in more rigorous underwriting or risk/payback analysis.  After all, this is our money that's being jacked.

[RoadKingLarry]

That was just the third date.  She's not off the potentials list, but there are some things in her life that she needs to deal with before it's even a consideration.

She's got a bit over a year before this one's back in the country so she might need to hurry a bit:


I think this one just goes to the movies with me for the popcorn:


Planning to see this one tomorrow, though unfortunately without the Corvette.

#2 and #3 both have some serious crazy eye going on, run.
 

[Ned Hamford]

When I transferred into a college they decided, after 2 semesters, to no longer accept the credits I brought with me from a previous (much higher ranked) college.  I had it in writing, I relied on it, but then after I had already sunk a year into the institution they required me to take additional classes of no meaningful value that costs me over ten thousand dollars and a goodly chunk of my time.

When I went to law school, there was a change of administration that wasn't announced until the year started; and with it came an overhaul of their programs.  What I got was a very significant departure from what I was promised.  But, law school credits don't transfer at all; and they aren't keen on letting a student get away.  Their financial aid dept. was so kind as to rewrite and resubmit my loan application for me for the higher amounts  later on too.

When student debt is discussed there is always plenty of talk of how important it is to pay ones' owns debts ect.  Often lacking is the mindfulness that by act of Congress Student Loans have no consumer protections; no appeal to the protection of state laws, and fraud at a multitude of levels is rampant.  They get you before, during, and after.  There is plenty more to express on the subject, but, yah, I am not a fan of the status quo. 

[De Selby]

The loan program is meant to send everyone possible to college - this is a classic case of "market principles" gone awry in government policy.   The government chose to make cheap loans available in huge quantities for education.   Naturally, a significant proportion of the education sector's response has been a scramble for the cash.  The system is now oriented around trapping the billions flowing through the stream.

Setting aside whether we should be using public incentives for college, a much more reliable way to achieve an educated populace is to simply spend the funds on public education, and make it cheaper to go.   It's a subsidy all the same, but it doesn't create a feeding frenzy for dollars.  It also gives the public some control over what subjects and disciplines get priority.  So, if we don't like liberal arts, we can administer our public schools to favour sciences, etc.

If you want profit seeking, flooding the market with cash is a good idea.  If you want some other outcome, it is almost always better to just spend the cash directly to buy it.  This goes for housing, education, and health just the same.

[Firethorn]

If you want profit seeking, flooding the market with cash is a good idea.  If you want some other outcome, it is almost always better to just spend the cash directly to buy it.  This goes for housing, education, and health just the same.

I've actually said before - the best way to 'correct' the problem of students graduating with too much debt and being forced to take minimum wage jobs that require a ridiculously high degree for it's skill level(like the business that wanted a Master's degree to be a mail clerk) is to stop giving out so much money for college educations.

With less money available to go to college with, we'd see fewer people going to college.  As you may know, in economics the higher the price goes, the more people are willing to offer that good/service.  Drop the price people are willing/able to pay, businesses tend to offer less of it. 

With fewer people going to and graduating from college, Jobs that offer low wages for 'college degree required' jobs will find themselves unable to fulfill the slot, on average.  Some jobs like charities might attract some workers, but unless your job is really 'fulfilling' and 'fun' outside of pure pay, you're not going to get anybody.  Ergo, wages for college graduates rise, and high school graduates become more employable again.

When I transferred into a college they decided, after 2 semesters, to no longer accept the credits I brought with me from a previous (much higher ranked) college.  I had it in writing, I relied on it, but then after I had already sunk a year into the institution they required me to take additional classes of no meaningful value that costs me over ten thousand dollars and a goodly chunk of my time.

If you had it in writing, you probably could have sued over them deciding to not take the credits.

It is my liability when Axe and I have arranged for you to contact me for loans to purchase their product;
It is my liability when I have a manned office at the Axe sales location to process your loan application;
It is my liability when I have full disclosure as to the intended use of the money (in effect, a secured loan);
It is my liability when, after the above, Axe took my money from you and then sold you a bottle of piss with a squirt of dish soap.

Look, I'm not suggesting that defrauding financial institutions is fair or right. I am suggesting that this situation may be justifiable if it (fat chance) results in more rigorous underwriting or risk/payback analysis.  After all, this is our money that's being jacked.

You said what I was trying to say better than I could.  Thank you.

[Jamisjockey]

The loan program is meant to send everyone possible to college - this is a classic case of "market principles" gone awry in government policy.   The government chose to make cheap loans available in huge quantities for education.   Naturally, a significant proportion of the education sector's response has been a scramble for the cash.  The system is now oriented around trapping the billions flowing through the stream.

Setting aside whether we should be using public incentives for college, a much more reliable way to achieve an educated populace is to simply spend the funds on public education, and make it cheaper to go.   It's a subsidy all the same, but it doesn't create a feeding frenzy for dollars.  It also gives the public some control over what subjects and disciplines get priority.  So, if we don't like liberal arts, we can administer our public schools to favour sciences, etc.

If you want profit seeking, flooding the market with cash is a good idea.  If you want some other outcome, it is almost always better to just spend the cash directly to buy it.  This goes for housing, education, and health just the same.

My only nit to pick is that government has shown an ineptitude at social engineering, therefore I doubt that we could expect a subsidy to fix the problem. 

[mtnbkr]

I've actually said before - the best way to 'correct' the problem of students graduating with too much debt and being forced to take minimum wage jobs that require a ridiculously high degree for it's skill level(like the business that wanted a Master's degree to be a mail clerk) is to stop giving out so much money for college educations.

FWIW, now that I'm in a position to write job reqs for positions I want to fill (and interview the candidates found by the recruiters), I don't require a college degree, nor do I give priority to an applicant just because he/she has a degree (unless it comes with a high level of experience and the degree is specific to the work they'll be doing).

Chris

[Firethorn]

FWIW, now that I'm in a position to write job reqs for positions I want to fill (and interview the candidates found by the recruiters), I don't require a college degree, nor do I give priority to an applicant just because he/she has a degree (unless it comes with a high level of experience and the degree is specific to the work they'll be doing).

Chris

You're unusual though.

[roo_ster]

You're unusual though.

Yep.  The trend at hospitals around here is to require bachelors degree registered nurses for some silly reason over straight up rn nurses.  They add zero to actual nursing skill and patient care for the extra year of fluff coursework.

[lupinus]

You're unusual though.

Well yeah, we already knew that.

As usual, the government has managed to squeeze out some extra feel goodz and *expletive deleted*ck up an already *expletive deleted*ed up system to even greater levels of fuckery than it had been experiencing. Throw on some massive doses of "YOU NEEDZ A DEGREE 11TY!!!" and fools that have elevated certification base lines while lowering the value of experience for decades and it's hardly surprising the flood gates have been opened and outright fraud is rampant.

[mtnbkr]

You're unusual though.

In this area (Northern VA and DC) and industry (IT Security), not so much.  I can't remember the last time I saw a hiring manager give a crap about a degree.  They wanted to know about experience and certs, with experience trumping all.

Chris

[KD5NRH]

#2 and #3 both have some serious crazy eye going on, run.

Yeah, and?  Not marrying them, just having some fun.  Crazy is good for fun, as long as you keep them away from sharp objects.

[brimic]

Crazy is good for fun, as long as you keep them away from sharp objects.

Fun indeed. Until they find a sharp object.   

[Balog]

In this area (Northern VA and DC) and industry (IT Security), not so much.  I can't remember the last time I saw a hiring manager give a crap about a degree.  They wanted to know about experience and certs, with experience trumping all.

Chris

I think IT in general is one of the last non-trade fields where that is the case.

[mtnbkr]

You're probably correct.  Other than a year or two as a business analyst when I first graduated, I've spent my entire career in IT.  I've lost count of the number of people who not only did NOT have college degrees, but didn't even have high school diplomas.  The industry is almost entirely a meritocracy.  I think part of it is that, until recently, much of IT learning and ability was self-taught and inherent to the type of people attracted to the field.  Also, few school programs can keep up with the pace of change in the IT world.  At best, you teach concepts and processes and encourage students to maintain their curiosity and willingness to self-teach throughout their career.  So, being dogmatic about degrees isn't very productive.

Chris

[Fitz]

Yep... the only time I've ever really seen folks care about a degree in IT is when they're pushing someone into management... and even then it's most definitely not a pre-req.

I"m not finishing my master's because i feel it's necessary for my career progression, that's for sure.

As much as I bitch about the IT industry, it REALLY is a place where you make your own way. People rise in this field based entirely on their work ethic and merit.

For instance.

I did some light IT work in high school. Went into the Army as an infantryman but still played around with computers. Then I got out, and decided to go to college... which was mostly me making middlin' grades and partying a lot because I was an idiot. Then I got called back to Iraq.

Iraq mob 2005-2007. During IRAQ, finished almost all of my degree. Then about two years on a helpdesk. First REAL full time IT job. This was in 2007ish
2009, army mobilization, had just finished my B.S. Another year of non-IT experience.
2010-, help desk. Begged for more responsibility because I was learning extremely fast, particularly virtualization/storage stuff. Started M.S. because I wanted to get more into the PM and soft side of things
2011-2013 - Started as a mid tier server/storage/virt. guy. Had to learn fast because the project moved fast. Sucked up knowledge like a *expletive deleted*ing vacuum. After the "lead" quit and they searched for a replacement for 6 months, I was made the lead and I hired some folks under me. THIS was the very FIRST time that the IT world cared about my college or my military leadership experience

End of 2013 to the present: Infrastructure engineer for the second largest cloud services provider in the world, above 6 figure income, frequently get brought in on major infrastructure and design changes, and about to get converted from a contractor to a full time employee, with 2-3 engineers under me in the coming months.



So, from help desk lackey helping Mrs So-and-So "find that icon thingy that brings up the internets", to here, in a bit under 8 years. And that includes three years of *expletive deleted*in off with the army, not doing IT work.

[Balog]

You're probably correct.  Other than a year or two as a business analyst when I first graduated, I've spent my entire career in IT.  I've lost count of the number of people who not only did NOT have college degrees, but didn't even have high school diplomas.  The industry is almost entirely a meritocracy.  I think part of it is that, until recently, much of IT learning and ability was self-taught and inherent to the type of people attracted to the field.  Also, few school programs can keep up with the pace of change in the IT world.  At best, you teach concepts and processes and encourage students to maintain their curiosity and willingness to self-teach throughout their career.  So, being dogmatic about degrees isn't very productive.

Chris

A friend of mine who does hiring for a smaller tech company tends to view a degree as a negative that must be overcome when he's hiring folks.