Author Topic: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans  (Read 22828 times)

wmenorr67

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2015, 03:10:34 PM »
Had we actually invaded Japan, that would have likely meant one of two things:

1. We didn't have the bomb, because it was a failure in testing,

2. The scientists won out in convincing the Government that it was too terrible to use and it was a political decision to hold it back.

As it was, the United States didn't have enough fissionable materail for a fourth bomb until 1946.

Actually there is option 3.  Japan still refused to surrender.

Imagine the blood bath if we actually would have had to invade.  We might actually still be fighting if that had to have happened.
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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2015, 09:25:44 PM »
Quote
2. The scientists won out in convincing the Government that it was too terrible to use and it was a political decision to hold it back.

Can you imagine if we had the likes of Obama as president during WWII?

Roosevelt was a *expletive deleted*ing commie son of a bitch, but at least he had some guts instead of an urge to bow.

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Blakenzy

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2015, 12:19:37 AM »
You know, I'm pretty sure the Japanese will have their revenge one day. I can't seem to believe that they are all OK with getting nuked and leaving it at that. Revenge is a dish best served shushi-cold?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2015, 12:26:57 AM »
Japanese are not the ones to worry about. Our descendants will be speaking chinese if the chinese get their way. The japanese know this so will ally with us to combat that.
I suspect the chinese will win anyway just take longer


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Blakenzy

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2015, 12:44:26 PM »
I dunno. The Chinese Empire seems very unstable to me. First of all it depends heavily on western consumerism, Second it relies entirely on raw matter flowing in, Third it will only stand by keeping a billion+ humans under slavery.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2015, 03:34:22 PM »
I gave first child a chinese middle name
The chinese have more i don't give a damn that anyone else and can afford/sustain the casualties to back it up. Losing population is a good thing for them

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MechAg94

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2015, 03:35:02 PM »
I dunno. The Chinese Empire seems very unstable to me. First of all it depends heavily on western consumerism, Second it relies entirely on raw matter flowing in, Third it will only stand by keeping a billion+ humans under slavery.
4th: their population is very concentrated in the Eastern side of the country nearer the coast.  Wouldn't take much infrastructure destruction to knock them down a bit.  
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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2015, 10:54:35 PM »
You know, I'm pretty sure the Japanese will have their revenge one day. I can't seem to believe that they are all OK with getting nuked and leaving it at that. Revenge is a dish best served shushi-cold?

The nuking was OUR revenge - served pretty damn hot.
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Re: Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2015, 11:00:52 PM »
The nuking was OUR revenge - served pretty damn hot.
Truth.
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K Frame

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2015, 09:49:26 PM »
The nuking was OUR revenge - served pretty damn hot.

MMMmmmmm.... Yes and no.

Truman did not, under any circumstances, want to sent American troops ashore. He knew what kind of bloodbath it would be.

In fact, planners were so worried what might happen that some plans called for heavy use of mustard and phosgene gas.

When he was offered a chance to end the war with one of the new "wonderweapons" he took it.

A lot of people have since claimed that Japan was about to surrender (or actually had, and we ignored it). No evidence for that exists at all. They put out some demands of their own, which the US rejected.

The Japanese also totally ignored the Potsdam Declaration.

And, even after two atomic bombs and the Emperor's decision to surrender, a cadre of military officers attempted to mutiny, overthrow the Emperor's guard, take him under their "protection" and issue orders to fight to the last person.

What a lot of revisionist historians won't ever admit is that the dual atomic bombings may well have saved Japanese lives.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2015, 09:51:24 PM »
Whether it was or was not revenge the japanese think it was. And they are ok with thst


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MechAg94

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2015, 10:29:47 PM »
I have heard continued blockade and bombing was an option also.  We had a fairly effective blockade of Japan by that time.  I doubt starvation would have been much better for the Japanese people. 
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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2015, 10:33:46 PM »
Food was scarce. There were less than 100 breeding pairs of akitas left by wars end


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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K Frame

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2015, 07:36:32 AM »
Whether it was or was not revenge the japanese think it was. And they are ok with thst


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They've never had a particularly cogent view of their role in the Pacific War, and as a nation have steadfastly refused to accept responsibility for the atrocities committed during their period of empire building, so once again, a *expletive deleted*it I shall not give about what they think.
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K Frame

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2015, 07:42:37 AM »
I have heard continued blockade and bombing was an option also.  We had a fairly effective blockade of Japan by that time.  I doubt starvation would have been much better for the Japanese people.  

A continued blockade was an option, but that could have dragged on, literally, for years until it had its desired effects.

The US blockade of the home islands was, in large part, a stranglehold. By the end of the war virtually nothing was getting through to the home islands. The United States Navy had sunk virtually the entire Japanese merchant fleet.

The issue with continued bombing is that, by May 1945, the Army Air Force was literally out of targets. With the exception of, IIRC, 6 cities that had been unexplicably held off the bombing lists (unexplicable because they were potential atomic bomb targets), pretty much every other major population center and industrial area had been bombed and burned.

The only problem with waiting that long, though, is the fact that you've still got nearly 2 million Japanese soldiers on the mainland, which are fully capable of causing quite a bit of havoc.

Then you've also got the Soviet problem.

The US atomic bombings were as much about showing the Soviets the awesome new weapon we had (and they didn't) as they were about revenge for Pearl Harbor.

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Andiron

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2015, 10:14:46 AM »


The US atomic bombings were as much about showing the Soviets the awesome new weapon we had (and they didn't) as they were about revenge for Pearl Harbor.



Makes you wonder if the Red Army would've been content with stopping at Berlin,  if they didn't have to worry about getting nuked.
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MechAg94

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2015, 10:24:57 AM »
There probably would have been one Communist Korea today if we had waited. 
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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2015, 10:39:57 AM »
Just as an aside, the US military is still issuing Purple Hearts from the first contract that were ordered for Operation Downfall.  The second contract was cancelled after the surrender.  That means that all the wounded from Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, DS/DS, OEF, OIF and other minor actions have been given Medals that were intended for their fathers and grandfathers.  As of 2003 there were still approx. 120,000 still in stock from WWII.

 http://www.stripes.com/blogs/the-rumor-doctor/the-rumor-doctor-1.104348/are-purple-hearts-from-1945-still-being-awarded-1.116756
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K Frame

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2015, 11:06:07 AM »
Makes you wonder if the Red Army would've been content with stopping at Berlin,  if they didn't have to worry about getting nuked.

Well, considering that the war in Europe ended several months before the dropping of the atomic bombs (yes, the Russians already knew about the bombs, but at that point no one knew if they would work or not), and the Russians generally kept their word on the territorial divisions....
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makattak

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2015, 11:56:35 AM »
Well, considering that the war in Europe ended several months before the dropping of the atomic bombs (yes, the Russians already knew about the bombs, but at that point no one knew if they would work or not), and the Russians generally kept their word on the territorial divisions....


Yeah, it wasn't the nukes that kept them in place.

I'm will to bet Patton's Third Army may have had something to do with it, though.
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wmenorr67

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2015, 01:28:58 PM »
Russia was broke.  They were happy for the war in Europe to end.  We just didn't have the equipment to fight in Russia during winter or we might not have stopped at Berlin.
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roo_ster

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2015, 03:02:25 PM »
Russia was broke.  They were happy for the war in Europe to end.  We just didn't have the equipment to fight in Russia during winter or we might not have stopped at Berlin.

The whole purpose of the European theater was to save Russian communism.  Not sold that way, but given the number of commies in FDR's administration who got riled up after Hitler invaded the USSR, the outcome they sought is the outcome they got.

We had plenty of equipment to turn Russia inside out from multiple directions:
1. Baltic
2. Mideast
3. Pacific
4. Oh, and from W Europe is we wanted to take the long land route.
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MechAg94

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2015, 05:26:56 PM »
I was thinking that at the end of WWII, we had already stopped or slowed down a lot of the war time economy.  Many of the US front line soldiers had been in constant combat for some time.  Our supply lines were strung out from the Atlantic across Europe.  We would have had the same issues trying to beat Soviet Russia that Germany had.  Most of Russia's war production was far away from Europe.  It would have taken a great deal of effort and time and we would have done it with few if any allies. 

Recall that most of the really bad stuff about the Soviet Union didn't come out until after WWII.  We have communist sympathizer journalists in Russia and the Ukraine actively covering it up. 
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Balog

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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2015, 06:03:52 PM »
The whole purpose of the European theater was to save Russian communism.  Not sold that way, but given the number of commies in FDR's administration who got riled up after Hitler invaded the USSR, the outcome they sought is the outcome they got.

We had plenty of equipment to turn Russia inside out from multiple directions:
1. Baltic
2. Mideast
3. Pacific
4. Oh, and from W Europe is we wanted to take the long land route.

Lol. No. We lacked the ability to project a sufficient amount of force to conquer, pacify, and hold the USSR.
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Re: The Japanese have a low opinion of Americans
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2015, 06:14:55 PM »
I was thinking that at the end of WWII, we had already stopped or slowed down a lot of the war time economy.  Many of the US front line soldiers had been in constant combat for some time.  Our supply lines were strung out from the Atlantic across Europe.  We would have had the same issues trying to beat Soviet Russia that Germany had.  Most of Russia's war production was far away from Europe.  It would have taken a great deal of effort and time and we would have done it with few if any allies. 

Recall that most of the really bad stuff about the Soviet Union didn't come out until after WWII.  We have communist sympathizer journalists in Russia and the Ukraine actively covering it up. 

The draw-down was a result of the Mission Accomplished! We saved Uncle Joe!  No reason it could not have gone on another couple years.

Germany could hit the USSR only from the west and from southwest via land routes.  America had many more options: Baltic ports, Mideast (via Iran), as well as the far east from the Pacific.  IIRC, most of Russian production would have been within bombing range of our B17/B29 bombers had we decided to base them in Iran.

Also, Russia grinds to a halt without American Lend-Lease material.  As in, "Can't get the crops out of the fields or troops to the front" sort of thing.  Mass starvation combined with immobile masses of troops does not make for a formidable fighting force.

The Poles, Ukranians, Finns, and many others in central & eastern Europe would be more than willing to kill Russians.  And there was a large mass of trained German soldiers to draw from.  Also, Churchill was in favor of more energetic opposition to the Russians.

The vile brutality of the communists was known before WWII.  Recall the "Red Scare" in the 1920s.

And Patton was outside of Prague with the 3rd Army.

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Lol. No. We lacked the ability to project a sufficient amount of force to conquer, pacify, and hold the USSR.

Who would want to hold the USSR?  Destroying it is the objective.  We had what was necessary to conquer and pacify.  Both material and position.  Look at a map. 

Without the centralizing terror of the Russian communist party and Red Army, the USSR splits apart into separate nationalities.  Conquer a section, set up locals to run the place and ferret out and kill all the Russians (commie or otherwise).  Like many did after the USSR collapsed.  Decades earlier and with a bit more forethought to separate Siberia & the other Asian bits from European Russia.  After turning European Russia inside out, treat them like we treated Germany after WWII.  They still might have ended up surly, but they would have only a fraction of the resources with which to act on it.




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roo_ster

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