Author Topic: Prove she objected!  (Read 3891 times)

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Prove she objected!
« on: April 14, 2015, 11:48:23 PM »
There are lines.  This one has been crossed.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/health/sex-dementia-and-a-husband-henry-rayhons-on-trial-at-age-78.html?_r=1

Quote
The case pivots on longstanding medical and ethical concerns that will become only more pressing as the population ages and rates of dementia rise. How can anyone determine whether a person with dementia can say yes to sex? Who has the right to decide?

Not legal code, but nebulous medical and ethical concerns!

There are a bunch of folks who are in desparate need of having their brain housing groups aligned.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,000
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2015, 01:04:49 AM »
When I was doing risk management for the hospices, this was a big deal with the dementia patients.  We wrestled with the same consent issues and a lot of nursing home staff were very uneasy if the person could not provide clear and unambiguous consent.  Are you facilitating rape?  In Washington and many other states, marital status is immaterial on the determination of rape or not. I think it will be a bigger problem as the baby boomers age out.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,407
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 07:35:58 AM »
This is a nightmare.   Declare a person completely incapable of consent,  something like this could happen.  Go the other way, and it's open season in the nursing home for the pervs.  Just to on make it more complicated, like the article said, lucidity can vary from day to day, or even hour to hour.  Do you deny the right to engage in relations in the name of safety, or do you presume the ability to consent and let the chips fall where they may?  Can't see a good way to solve this one.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2015, 09:07:07 AM »
Quote
accused of having sex with his wife in a nursing home on May 23, 2014, eight days after staff members there told him they believed she was mentally unable to agree to sex.

Are unnamed staff members considered the authority?

Quote
It is rare, possibly unprecedented, for such circumstances to prompt criminal charges. Mr. Rayhons, a nine-term Republican state legislator, decided not to seek another term after his arrest.
Wonder if this little fact has something to do with this?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,000
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2015, 10:34:14 AM »
Are unnamed staff members considered the authority?

Yes.  Staff in hospitals, long term care, skilled nursing facilities and the like routinely make clinical determinations as to the competency of a patient since that has implications for their care.  Is the patient mentally able to comprehend their treatment and make an informed decision whether to accept or decline treatment, consent to activities, etc.  You also routinely see this sort of thing in the emergency department when a patient presents impaired or demented and they need to be treated.

_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

HeroHog

  • Technical Site Pig
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,042
  • It can ALWAYS get worse!
    • FaceButt Profile
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2015, 12:07:48 PM »
My MiL is in a hospital type home now because of dementia. Years back she had shock treatments for her psychological issues and she has always been "a little crazy" as long as I have known her and it got very slowly progressively worse over the years. We tried to force her to get help but her husband, a rather spineless simp, refused to say anything counter to what she said out of fear. She damned near killed herself once by giving herself a stroke (she already had a heart attack and a pacemaker/defibrillator) because she knew more than her doctors and was taking/not taking her meds the way SHE wanted to. All in all, a sad state of affairs. Her kids are scared to death that they may wind up like her.
I might not last very long or be very effective but I'll be a real pain in the ass for a minute!
MOLON LABE!

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2015, 12:39:13 PM »
Quote
The petition did not mention sexual activity, but said that Mr. Rayhons disregarded staff members’ recommendations, including that he not visit his wife’s room because of “conflicts with her roommate.”

This just screams setup; if the roommate has a problem with the husband, you shuffle beds, not tell the husband to stay away.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,000
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2015, 12:50:49 PM »
^^^In my experience, complaints on this issue usually come from the patient's children, who think that the parents are too old, infirm, or incompetent to be having sexual relations, and they should just give it a rest.  Most of the time, it is a daughter complaining about her father wanting to maintain a sexual relationship in the facility with his wife.  Especially so if the daughter is not the biological daughter of the father, as it is in this case or if there were poor family dynamics.

So the facility has to weigh two competing interests: the children vs. the parents, and this is an issue where competency to make decisions is key.  If the couple is still competent and makes their own decisions on this, you would generally tell the children to take a hike.  If one or both of the couple is incompetent and/or the children hold healthcare power of attorney or decision-making, then you have to sit down and discuss which way to go.

One of the reasons that the facility staff get the vapors about this sort of thing is if they think that abuse or neglect is occurring, and non-consensual sex is within the definition of abuse or neglect, they are obligated by law under penalty of losing their healthcare license to report this to the local or State adult protective agency.  I would also add that the adult protective agency hates these sort of cases and trying to sort things out can be very difficult.  I have been in court hearings on this sort of thing where the judge, the caseworker, people from the facility, people from the family and I all sit and look at each other and say 'how the heck do we fix this problem?'.

And again, the fact that the couple is married to each other makes no difference in terms of consent, since non-consensual sex in the context of marriage is a crime in Washington and many other states. I would get calls about that all the time.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2015, 02:06:21 PM »
It's a he-said-he-said case.  The doctor says she couldn't consent to sex, and the husband says she did consent to sex. 

The doctor's claim is a medical opinion.  The husband's is a statement of fact.  Is there any reason why the opinion should trump the fact?

Attempting to solve these kinds of issues bureaucratically will result in tragedy.

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,232
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2015, 02:59:15 PM »
If the couple is married, I think there is an implied consent unless there's strong evidence to the contrary -- even if one of them is demented.   If they are not married, there is no implied consent and consent has to be granted. 

I suppose that's an old fashioned notion so it gets dismissed out-of-hand  ;/
"It's good, though..."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2015, 03:17:29 PM »
Yes.  Staff in hospitals, long term care, skilled nursing facilities and the like routinely make clinical determinations as to the competency of a patient since that has implications for their care.  Is the patient mentally able to comprehend their treatment and make an informed decision whether to accept or decline treatment, consent to activities, etc.  You also routinely see this sort of thing in the emergency department when a patient presents impaired or demented and they need to be treated.


Determining consent and competency for treatment is one thing.  Deciding mental competency to tell the husband he can't see his wife is something else.  Perhaps that is my opinion, but that sort of thing goes further than just the "opinion of staff".  It goes beyond treatment and nearly goes as far as assuming Power of Attorney which would require a court judge.  

I also gather from what you said the staff has the ability to tell the husband to take a flying leap if he doesn't agree with the treatment.  I have issues with that also, but I don't know what the law is.  

To me, it is the same reason I don't want the medical community deciding I can't own guns.  It shouldn't be their decision. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 03:29:41 PM by MechAg94 »
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,000
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2015, 03:53:24 PM »
If the couple is married, I think there is an implied consent unless there's strong evidence to the contrary -- even if one of them is demented.   If they are not married, there is no implied consent and consent has to be granted.  

I suppose that's an old fashioned notion so it gets dismissed out-of-hand  ;/

In many, if not most state jurisdictions in the USA (although I have not done a Lexis search to confirm this), you are on very thin legal ice arguing the doctrine of implied consent from marriage.  That generally went away years ago after changes in statute or case law decisions.  Asserting that as a defense to charges of sexual assault or rape will generally not be successful.  And of course, conviction of such charges mean that you will be a registered sex offender and lose the right to own or possess firearms.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2015, 03:56:15 PM »
If the couple is married, I think there is an implied consent unless there's strong evidence to the contrary -- even if one of them is demented.   If they are not married, there is no implied consent and consent has to be granted.  

I suppose that's an old fashioned notion so it gets dismissed out-of-hand  ;/
There was no evidence to the contrary here.  No evidence of struggle or abuse, no complaints from the wife, nothing.  The case against the husband is built upon on an opinion of the doc that she couldn't consent and the daughter's complaints after the fact.  It has nothing to do with what the husband and wife actually did that night.

I'm with you, I would think the wife's consent was, if not implied, then at least very likely.  Certainly more likely than not, given the circumstances (e.g. she was found wearing lingerie afterwards) and the complete lack of evidence to the contrary.  

I think it's tragic that so much weight is being given to the doctor's recommendation, and so little to the wife's wishes and actions.  So far as I can tell, nobody even bothered to ask her about the sex that night, whether she wanted it or not.  Maybe she couldn't have answered, but they didn't even try to ask. They just took the doctor's opinion that she was incompetent and therefore it had to be nonconsensual, her actual consent (or lack) never entered the picture.

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2015, 04:34:33 PM »
It's a he-said-he-said case.  The doctor says she couldn't consent to sex, and the husband says she did consent to sex.

More importantly, how much time elapsed between the alleged consent and a full evaluation of her mental state?  As has been said, dementia isn't a constant state.  When my granddad was dying, there were plenty of times he couldn't remember his name or how to hold a spoon, but there were other times he could field strip and reassemble a 1911 and recite the combination to the safe he'd sold years before.  In the absence of any complaint from the alleged victim, the burden of proof to show that she wasn't having a lucid moment should lie with the accuser.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2015, 06:01:29 PM »
The mental incompetency issue is what interested me here (in part).  A doctor may judge issues regarding treatment, but people are declared mentally incompetent in a court.  The doctor's opinion is may be relevant, but shouldn't be law.  That would overlap far too many other areas. 

I still wonder if his political career is a factor in this.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2015, 06:39:58 PM »
The daughter sought guardianship over her mother, and it was granted by the court, but this all happened after the incident took place.  The daughter didn't mention the sex to the court at that time.

The more I think about it, the more suspicious I become.  Maybe it was politically motivated, maybe it was familial bad blood.  I dunno.  But the daughter didn't go after the husband over the 'rape' until after her mother died, so it wasn't about protecting her mother.

Sucks to be him.  Lost his wife, lost his career, got arrested, and his daughter in law is going after him for rape under extremely dubious grounds.

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2015, 08:21:38 PM »
I've been quiet while enjoying the discussion.

What I may have missed is that should one be declared incompetent (to any degree or to perform any function) there is a legal need for a conservator or guardian to be appointed by the court - either based on the prior written wishes of the individual or "the best interests" as the court sees them.

Medical power of attorney does not cover the handling of the person's estate or of their person in areas not directly related to medical care decisions.  Guardianship imposes responsibilities and obligations beyond conservatorship - mostly in regards to reporting to the court and the extent of fudiciary responsibility.

If the medical staff was of the opinion that she was not competent to make decisions about life events such as who may visit, when and where they may visit, or how she carries out a relationship with any person they have not just a responsibility but a legal obligation to either place the burden on the family or bring the matter directly to the court for a decision on whether or  not to appoint a conservator/guardian, and if so, which.

Hubby should not be charged with sexual abuse.  Instead he should be charged with abuse of an adult with diminished capacity.  But that  would require that the state prove he did what he did knowing that his wife had diminished capacity and that he took advantage of that to do something a reasonable person otherwise would not have given permission to do.

A good defense attorney could make a case that the doctors/medical staff are accessories in the first degree before and after the fact by failing to seek the court's protection for the person they believed to be of diminished capacity after informing Mr. Rayhon of the need to get court protection and his refusal;/failure to do so.  Will Mr. Rayhons' attorneys do that?  Highly doubtful based on my guess that he is going to accept some sort of plea agreement rather than fight the charge, and that he would rather be locked up than be free but not allowed to visit his wife without some observer present.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,000
  • APS Risk Manager
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,232
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2015, 11:16:39 PM »
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/jury-iowa-man-guilty-abusing-wife-dementia-30508736

Not guilty.

Interesting how they made the link look like he was guilty if you didn't actually click it.
"It's good, though..."

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2015, 02:57:48 AM »
Url constructors in several content management systems ignore words like "not" when building a url

It's weirdness like this that has me select the "date" option in my blog preferences. Then the urn doesn't get weird
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,881
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2015, 08:57:51 AM »
Without re-reading it all, didn't he already resign from the legislature because of all the BS?

Mission accomplished?

I guess the Party gets to appoint a replacement for his remaining term, but if it's close to re-election time, the replacement won't have time to establish a record or maybe to even mount a decent campaign.

Just wondering... as some in this thread have already wondered.

Or am I looking for snakes where none exist?

WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,738
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2015, 09:16:37 AM »
Nothing would surprise me when it comes to dirty politics.  Many of those people don't care how low they go if it accomplishes their political goals.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: Prove she objected!
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2015, 12:22:04 PM »
Without re-reading it all, didn't he already resign from the legislature because of all the BS?

Mission accomplished?

I guess the Party gets to appoint a replacement for his remaining term, but if it's close to re-election time, the replacement won't have time to establish a record or maybe to even mount a decent campaign.

Just wondering... as some in this thread have already wondered.

Or am I looking for snakes where none exist?



Yes, he resigned when the BS began.  However I do not think there was a political consipracy.

And I'm still wondering why the daughter held POA and then was granted guardianship.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.