More Liberalism Run Amok in the ROTC

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yeah, I'm with Mak on this one.  I'm looking for the good cause here and not finding one.  Feminist agitation is not, in itself, a good cause.  

The military has a real job to do.  Maybe they should spend their time doing it.

[Hawkmoon]

Now untwist your knickers chill the f*** out.

No. I will not.

Chill the f*** out yourself. I put my a** on the line wearing the uniform of a United States soldier, and I didn't do it so forty years later ROTC cadets could be ordered to prance around wearing ACUs with red stiletto heeled shoes.

Rape is bad. Rape in the military is bad. Ordering cadets to wear red shoes will not in any way reduce rape in the military. Claro?

[Perd Hapley]

...It's a kid who thought it was beneath him to walk in women's shoes, good cause be damned. He messages his butthurt about it....The kid's post oozes self pity, put upon-ness, and a general sense of this-is-beneath-me elitism.

Brad, I'm sorry, but that's all in your head. There's nothing in what he said that would make that impression on an objective observer. All of your talk of "if he didn't wanna follow orders, he shouldn't a' enlisted," is baloney. You know very well that he had no way of knowing he would be asked to do something like this.

Also, it certainly is "beneath him" to wear women's shoes, in the same way it is beneath my wife to get a crew-cut and don a tuxedo. If that weren't true, they wouldn't be asking men to wear heels, for this event. The whole idea is based on the self-effacement of a man wearing feminine footwear, is it not?

But again, I know you've done one these walks. For you, it's a fun way to support a good cause. I won't argue with that. You weren't forced to do it, while in a military uniform.

[Firethorn]

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/04/301448-controversy-after-rotc-cadets-allegedly-forced-to-march-in-event-wearing-questionable-footwear/

I think that what gets me about it is that the armed forces is actually very gender neutral.  Wearing a 'combat' uniform?  Outside of a medical waiver or publicity stunt authorized from HIGH UP, it's combat boots. 

If anything, I think that if we're going to put them in heels while in uniform, they should be in service dress while wearing the directed plain black moderately heeled shoes.  IE in uniform, just a 'female' authorized variation.

[Brad Johnson]

Need to apologize to you guys. I had a well and truly craptastic day and I let it piss poor attitude spill over into the way I was posting. I stand by my opinion, but my approach and presentation could have been a lot more... umm... tactful and diplomatic about it. Sorry.

Brad

[Perd Hapley]

Need to apologize to you guys. I had a well and truly craptastic day and I let it piss poor attitude spill over into the way I was posting. I stand by my opinion, but my approach and presentation could have been a lot more... umm... tactful and diplomatic about it. Sorry.

Brad

Thank you.

I still think you're being defensive, due to your own connection with the event in question. Viewed more dispassionately, one might ask; is it a good idea for a government program to require people to be involved with charity organizations, or issue-advocacy? Is it somewhat more questionable when it might undermine the value the military has traditionally placed on the squared-away uniform, and what it represents? Is it even more questionable when it requires something as controversial, as personal, and as potentially offensive as cross-dressing? Yeah, I know, it's not exactly Rue Paul; but not everyone is going to be comfortable with bright red high-heeled shoes on a dude. In a world where we dare not offend anyone, I think we can manage to be respectful of people's boundaries on the subject. 

[Brad Johnson]

It was my understanding that ROTC requires community involvment as part of the program. Is that incorrect?

Brad

[Perd Hapley]

It was my understanding that ROTC requires community involvment as part of the program. Is that incorrect?

Brad

I don't know. My last two objections would not be affected by this.

[Fitz]

It was my understanding that ROTC requires community involvment as part of the program. Is that incorrect?

Brad

Irrelevant, really. And no, there's generally not a requirement as part of the program to get involved in community events. Although it's frequently done for good PR. There are ways to support events like this that don't involve forcing a cadet, under threat of reprimand, to violate AR 670-1 (a regulation which, as a contracted cadet, he's BOUND BY LAW to follow).

Community involvement that involves mandatory participation in violating uniform regulations, is bogus. The uniform regulations exist for a reason.

Further, putting on heels to demonstrate for womens issues when the basic combat uniform is very purposely gender neutral kinda defeats the purpose.

It's degrading, and it's immoral to force a contracted cadet to violate 670-1 by wearing women's shoes.

Also, crossdressing, while not prohibited to members of the military, is expressly prohibited while representing the military. Further, it's ANOTHER ucmj violation to mix civilian clothing with the utility uniform, with the sole exception being a tennis shoe profile for someone with a foot condition which boots would aggravate.

Finally, I get real tired of hearing the "if he didnt want to follow orders, he shouldn't have joined" being tossed up as a catch-all for whatever hare-brained, borderline illegal order a soldier is forced to follow.

THe person who made this mandatory should be facing UCMJ action. Period.

Answer me this: what possible benefit to these soldiers' leadership abilities is produced by humiliating them in such a way and forcing them to violate several bits of military policy?

[vaskidmark]

"...then the Princess married her handsome Prince, the Kingdom was saved, and they all lived happily ever after. The End."

Brad

SecDef says ytou can't go there any more.

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/04/22/defense-secretary-stamp-out-dirty-jokes-to-fight-sexual-assault-in-ranks/

Defense Secretary Ashton Carter told Georgetown University students today that dirty jokes are among the military behaviors that need to be corrected to stop sexual assault in the ranks.

“Our military is based on an ethos of honor, and this is dishonorable,” Carter said of the military’s sexual assault problem. “And second, we’re based on trust. We have to have trust. You have to trust in the soldier in the foxhole next to you. You have to trust in the sailor you’re underway with. You have to trust in the airmen on your wing. And you have to trust in the Marine on your flank. And these violations and these assaults are not just violations of the law, they are violations of that trust, which is essential to our mission.”

Looks like it would be better just going to Obama's free community colleges where this stuff will get drumed into you without the useless interruptions for drill, police calls, KP, and traveing to foreign lands to meet exotic people and killing them.

Some of you have talked about discouraging your kids from considering the military as a career.  At this point I'd say it's time to channel Nancy Reagan and "Just Say No!" to the whole thing.

But for old time's sake, just once more:  An Army Ranger, an Airforce Parajumper, and a Recon Marine walk into a bar.  Nobody gets upset.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8JB_rLL1uY

stay safe.

[Mannlicher]

the female in charge needs to be bitchslapped

[Scout26]

<<<<<<<ROTC Graduate.

I'm on my phone now, and will post more about it later.

[Scout26]

OK, I' home and can type from a real keyboard.

I 100% agree with Fitz, for the reasons he stated.

At least when I was going through ROTC, community involvement was not a requirement.  Although, the "Black Berets" (aka Ranger wanna-bees) would march (in full uniform and full Rucksack, as a unit with the guidon and not as a gagglefuck as shown in the pictures) in the Wheaton 10k every year.  Other cadets could join them, BUT the cadre was completely indifferent to who did and did not march.  It was for your own personal betterment, marching 6.2 miles with a full ruck.  I never did it, simply because I would either be working or have drill that weekend.

Earlier this month I went to visit a Cub Scout Pack during their Blue and Gold Dinner.  (I was there to beg for money for Friends of Scouting).  When I walked in, there were several soldiers in Dress Blues/ASU's holding Flags and drill Rifles.    An NCO (SSG) and 4 cadets from Wheaton College.   They had been asked by the Cub Scout Pack and volunteered to serve as Color Guard for the dinner.   That's an acceptable thing for cadets to do.  And according to the SSG it was totally voluntary.   The ROTC department got the request and put it out to the Cadets.  Once they had four cadets willing to give up their Friday night, they called back and said "Yes".   Now, the four cadets may get a line in their "Reportcard" that says "Volunteered to represent the program at a community event", but none of the other cadets that didn't volunteer got down-checked or had "Refused to participate in a community activity."  In fact, 3 of the four were freshmen (non-contract) and one a sophomore (Scholarship/contract).  The SSG left, once she had "dropped them off".  

But getting back to this event.

This has ZERO value, in teaching and training new officers how to lead.  However, it does show the "real world" Army in which failing to do stupid *expletive deleted*it or acts one considers immoral can negatively affect your "Reportcard".    

And one the officers I admired in Wheaton College, gave us several blank sheets of paper and the Flagpole Test.  Being prior service I was only one to get the correct answer.  (Although I did lose points for "I'll be at the Officer's Club"  addendum.   )

But since Vietnam there has been the "Zero Defect" mentality, where the leadership gets blamed for PVT Snuffy's *expletive deleted*ck-ups.  Things that used to be and should be handled at the NCO level are now reflected on OER's as leadership failures.  Which was one reason I got out.  I was tired of being told to do NCO jobs and be in NCO business.  And my OER reflected it (Along with constantly being either setup to fail or thrown under the bus by my bigot/idiot of a Company Commander.)

This is just one more example of the social engineering experiment that the military becomes under leftist (CINC) leadership.

This, in my mind, damn near borders on an illegal order.  

But for old time's sake, just once more:  An Army Ranger, an Airforce Parajumper, and a Recon Marine walk into a bar.  Nobody gets upset.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8JB_rLL1uY

stay safe.

I thought this was what you were going to post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIqHhpX-pVs

[French G.]

But since Vietnam there has been the "Zero Defect" mentality, where the leadership gets blamed for PVT Snuffy's *expletive deleted*ck-ups.  Things that used to be and should be handled at the NCO level are now reflected on OER's as leadership failures.  Which was one reason I got out.  I was tired of being told to do NCO jobs and be in NCO business.  And my OER reflected it (Along with constantly being either setup to fail or thrown under the bus by my bigot/idiot of a Company Commander.)

And there it is. This starts at the Joint Chief level or above. And gets hammered on down the line with a clear understanding that every subordinate command had better not let this happen. So whatever DEOMI puts out that week becomes about as important as a tablet Moses lost. I clearly understood 20 years ago in the military of when not to tell "those" jokes, not to grab female co-workers asses, and really didn't need to be told not to rape. But 20 years later I'm still treated like a suspect.

It's not just the ROTC getting marks against them. I have an EO block on my eval. Unless I actively participate as part of the command's EO or SAPR(Sexual Assault Prevention and Response) teams I will never ever see a 5.0 in that block. In fact I will see only a 3.0. The only way I can get lower than that is bad touching I suppose.

I hit 21 years in July. The micro-management is ridiculous. Nothing I do could not be done by a motivated and junior E-5. Same goes for the all-knowing E-7s who exist solely to pad their resume and behave as un-documented admirals. I had one good tour for leadership and that was on a Gator Freighter. Our 80 person department had one LDO O-4, 2 CWOs and the rest enlisted. My chief was the divo. I pretty much functioned as the chief. Meanwhile back in CVN land you pretty much had to route a memo to take a piss.

[RoadKingLarry]

It was already rooted way back when I got out in '92. I was an E6 and the LPO of my division. My div-o was a LT and Dept. Head was LCDR. 
As LPO  I got reamed first if one of my guys screwed up. Best was a standing ass chewing from the COB(Chief of the boat, E9 top enlisted) when one of my E5s bounced a check at the commissary. Somehow I should have seen it coming and prevented it. Turned out to have been the banks screw up but I didn't get any apology.

The beginning of the end of my career came one afternoon in the ward room during our 2nd daily status briefing with the Dept head.
The LCDR got into a nasty shouting match with his E6 ET division LPO over trivial crap. I took it till he started the personal attacks, name calling and cussing then gave back as good as I was getting while the XO watched. "*expletive deleted*ck you" was flying thick from both sides but he was first to let fly.
Guess who went to Captain's Mast (Art. 15 for you ground pounders) for disrespect to a superior officer?
I'm pretty sure the Old Man dismissed it in large part because the LCDR was in fact an incompetent, worthless piece of *expletive deleted*it(the LCDR called me that first, I just repeated it to him during the dust up). That and the POS was such a dick that he didn't bother to formally notify me of the pending Captain's Mast. 
Lots more details but it was dismissed with no official record in my records.

[wmenorr67]

Such is why I am seriously considering leaving in about two years after my 20 year letter hits in August of 2016.

I will never see SFC (E-7) and if I'm not careful I might wind up back as a SGT (E-5).

[French G.]

I have my letter. It is a dangerous and powerful thing that you want to frame and wear around your neck like Flavor Flav. I'm there until 22 mainly so I can transfer educational benefits.

[wmenorr67]

I've been looking at doing that also, which would put me around 23 or so.

If I fulfill my contract I will be done at 22 also.