Kerry & the Troops

[lumpy]

Who is losing ethics?
Who is losing spending?  What does that even mean?
Who is losing stem cell research?  What does that mean?

You forgot Iraq...

Ethics... Delay indictment, Ney Guilty, Abramoff and the 437 contacts he 'didn't' have with the White House, Cunnignham, Steven's $250 million dollare bridge to nowhere attached to a defense funding bill, etc...

Spending: the dramtic increase in discretionary spending under the republican legislature, Bush's failure to veto any spending bill, bridge to nowhere... etc.

Stem Cell research: Speaking of vetos, the only bill that Bush felt the need to veto was for fed funding of Stem Cell research... it rings a bit hollow when he claims that he did it to avoid another government program giving his record on approving all the other discretionary spending. What a great concept... let's give away any advantage we could have in stem cell research just like Clinton gave away the DNA mapping... it's short term thinking BS.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

It ain't the Fed Gov's job to maintain any sort of national advantage in science.  That's something best left up to the private sector.

Which, come to think of it, is exactly what Bush did.  Hmm...


Lessee here...  Political corruption.  Ah yes, that's that thing that ALL corrupt politicians engage in, regardless of their political leanings.  Are you trying to suggest that only Republicans are corrupt?  'Cause if so, it might be fun for one of us to point out all the ways in which Democrats have transgressed...

Spending is certainly up, and that's a bad thing.  But what would it be if Democrats had control of everything?  I seem to remember a some rather grim periods in American politics dishonestly misnamed (as only politician can) as "The Great Society" and the "New Deal".  Those were high watermarks in terms of fiscal responsibility, no?

[lumpy]

Funny, I thought it was DEMOCRATS that actually have sex with the pages

typical of the liberal press to leave off the obvious... if you do a google on Jerry Stubbs you will find that Dan Crane, a republican was censured at the same time, for the same thing. There are enough lunatics to go around for all the parties.

You guys seem to have nothing better to do than ad homenin attacks... see ya.

btw: do you label everyone you disagree with as 'blackburn'?

[lumpy]

It ain't the Fed Gov's job to maintain any sort of national advantage in science

Ironically we're debating on the result one of those government programs...

[Ron]

Stem Cell research: Speaking of vetos, the only bill that Bush felt the need to veto was for fed funding of Stem Cell research.

Embryonic stem cell research.

The left is so dishonest they always leave out the distinction between adult (the one with successes) and embryonic (the one without any successes).

[Ron]

You guys seem to have nothing better to do than ad homenin attacks... see ya.

btw: do you label everyone you disagree with as 'blackburn'?

If you dish it out and can handle getting it back you will fit in around here.

Only the strong survive. The weak melt down.

[The Rabbi]

Actually the shocking thing is that the news media are paying any attention to that has-been at all.  They make it look like its a re-run of the last Presidential election when really its Kerry passing gas.

[lumpy]

It gets boring when the only thing one can do here is respond to those that are attacking someone suggesting that actual issues get discussed.

btw: my company works in clinical research and FDA regulatory consulting... you are correct there have been no sucesses in Embryonic stem cell research yet... but that is of course why they call it research. You will find very few researchers that feel that there is more long term promise in adult stem cells than embryonic stem cells.

Spending: your argument might hold water if historically it was supported. as a percent of GDP it is dramatically up over divided legislatures.

ron: gee thanks for the supportive remarks ... I will be back later. I have to get back to work at the moment.

[garyk/nm]

I thought you said you were leaving?
Good Bye !
If you remain, you have marked yourself as a troll and will be treated as such.
Good Bye!!!!! And don't let the door hit you....

[Ron]

tw: do you label everyone you disagree with as 'blackburn'?

On the assumption you are not blackburn I'll explain.

Simply he is the resident troll who pops up and stirs up trouble and eventually outs himself by increasingly "trollish" posts.

There is plenty of embryonic stem cell research taking place. The contoversy is in using government funds to fund research.

The Christian community pays taxes and believes it should have a say on how that money is spent. Paying to have human embryos created and/or destroyed for the "common good" by tax revenues is to many shockingly appalling.

The government shouldn't be subsidizing research in areas where the morality is at best murky and at worst the planned destruction of human life.

[StopTheGrays]

Funny, I thought it was DEMOCRATS that actually have sex with the pages

typical of the liberal press to leave off the obvious... if you do a google on Jerry Stubbs you will find that Dan Crane, a republican was censured at the same time, for the same thing. There are enough lunatics to go around for all the parties.

Crane had the decency to at least resign while Gerry Studds thumbed his nose at the censure.

[lumpy]

FYI-I'm not blackburn... apparently I've been marked as a troll though. Is that on my permanent record? 

"Crane had the decency to at least resign while Gerry Studds thumbed his nose at the censure."

Crane actually failed to get reelected ... Studds got reelected. the difference between then and now was that crane and studds were immediately censured, Foley did not resign until what was already known to the leadership was exposed to ABC.

off to spend time with the missus ... we can pick this up tomorrow. Have a nice day.

[StopTheGrays]

Yep, you are right about Crane. My mistake. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I've been compelled to change my avatar in light of recent events.

 

[lumpy]

House Majority Leader John Boehner: Wolf, I understand that, but let's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld.
Wolf Blitzer: But he's in charge of the military.
House Majority Leader John Boehner: But the fact is the generals on the ground are in charge and he works closely with them and the president. [CNN, 11/1/06]

maybe you should consider another change...

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I'm lost.  What's John Boehner got to do with the conversation?

[Perd Hapley]

FYI-I'm not blackburn... apparently I've been marked as a troll though.

Let us examine why you are accused of Blackburnism or trolling.

1. Claiming that Kerry was telling a "joke that was obviously about Bush."  There are only two explanations for such a ridiculous claim:

• You telling a lie to stir up controversy.
• You have been completely brainwashed by Kerry (and some of the media's) outright lies.  (It's certainly well beyond spin.)

Neither trolling nor kool-aid consumption make for good contributions to the board.

2. Apparently registering to our little chat board just to argue about Kerry, while claiming that the Kerry issue is a distraction.  Then making uninformed claims about what we are discussing on the board, along with a trumped-up charge that we are conducting a "hatefest."  Then, oddly, asking to be reported.  At no point do you make any comments on other threads that discuss issues that might be important.  You decline to start another thread to discuss such issues.
 
Other than the request to be reported on, this is classic Blackburn.  

3. Then some talk about neo-cons, usually a sign of paranoid dementia.

One of Blackburn's favorite bits.

4. Complaining of ad hominem attacks when plenty of substantive argument is going on and the personal criticism has been rather mild.

Another favorite tactic of Blackburn.

[Gun Runner]

Republicans, (neo-cons and conservatives both) win on the biggest issue of the day:  national defense.

 

Right, because of course we haven't had any attacks on US soil since 9-11-01. 

Hey "Bubba Clinton" was a huge suck-cess too in that case from 1993 on in the case of A-Rab terrorists at least.

Republicans win on the Iraq war.

 

Yes by brain washing the masses into believing some nonsense about having to kill Iraqis in Iraq or they'll be here and we'll have to kill them here.

Also calling insurgents "terrorists" and the Iraq war "the war on terror" (terror is a tactic by the way, not a noun) seems to do good for the radical religious righteous right.

Wait, I'm not seeing the winning here.

Republicans win on the economy, which is outstanging right now BTW. 

[f-word!!!]  I didn't notice!  Well if you and Booshy say it's good, it must be.  At least gas prices dropped down to something nearly affordable.  I guess the economy is doing great if you're an oil baron/pharmaceutical company/gov't contractor/etc.

Republicans win border security.

 

LOL LOL

"You are putting facts in your head" 

Yeah the border is like totally secure, dude.  And Bush is SUPER concerned about illegal immigration too. 

So I guess that's a win?

Republicans win on gun control.

 

Hmmm I say both parties LOSE on gun control.  Damn.

Republicans win on taxes.

 

If you're rich.

Republicans win on national spending (Republican spending is up, but just imagine what it would be if the Democrats were in power...)

 

OH YEAH BABAYYY! 

National Debt 10/30/2006:  $8,562,455,433,495.19

Awesome!  Super big WIN in that category!!!

National Debt 09/30/1999:  $5,656,270,901,615.43

Imagine if the Democrats were in power??  I remember those days.  Is $3 TRILLION more debt winning anything?


"Never let the facts stand in the way of a good argument"

1. Claiming that Kerry was telling a "joke that was obviously about Bush."  There are only two explanations for such a ridiculous claim:

• You telling a lie to stir up controversy.
• You have been completely brainwashed by Kerry (and some of the media's) outright lies.  (It's certainly well beyond spin.)

Neither trolling nor kool-aid consumption make for good contributions to the board.

Okay now YOU are trolling. 

I had no idea what this whole crap storm was over, having only heard a snippet about this on NPR about responses to what he said.

I looked up what he said.  The first thing that came to my mind was Bush.  But maybe my brain engages a little quicker than some folks.

But of course I'm either making this up, or I'm a super die-hard Kerry lover.        No.

[The Rabbi]

Gun Runner,
What was the last book on economics you read?  Have you ever read any?  Can you understand that levels of debt are not important, that the important measure is debt in relation to the whole GDP?  Do you comprehend that the deficit is lower as a percentage of GDP now than under Clinton?  Do you understand that factors other than Bush affect things like tax revenues?  Do you know what the current unemployment rate is?  What about job creation?
I realize that if someone is a factory worker who can easily be replaced by either an illiterate illegal alien or a Chinese worker then the economy looks bad.  But the reality for better than 94% of Americans is that the economy is doing fine.
You are obviously enthralled to your scrolling sig line and not letting facts get in the way of your emotionalism.

[Perd Hapley]

Gun Runner, I agree with your comments on border security.

Can you please explain your charge that I am trolling?  Can you define trolling?

Terror is a noun; see any dictionary.  "Insurgents" who use terrorism as a tactic are terrorists by definition.  Again, a dictionary will be useful in clarifying.

How does the Iraq war help religious conservatives? 

[Ron]

Yes by brain washing the masses into believing some nonsense about having to kill Iraqis in Iraq or they'll be here and we'll have to kill them here.

Also calling insurgents "terrorists" and the Iraq war "the war on terror"

Well Bin Laden seems to disagree with your assesment of Iraq.

"The war against America and its allies will not be confined to Iraq," the voice on the tape said, adding that "Iraq has become a magnet for attracting and training talented fighters."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/19/binladen.tape/index.html

[client32]

Does anyone have the text from this speech?

When I first heard the comment, I thought it was intended to be a jab at Bush.  I will admit that I only heard the one line.  I don't know his intent, but if it was a jab at Bush, Kerry should have phrased it differently.  Which has already been discussed.

If I missed a link here to the speech, I'm sorry.

[Iain]

fistful, think you've been a little broad in your accusation of trollery. After reading what he said Bush was the first thing that came to mind, and that was before Kerry pulled out his justification.

Got to admit, to me this is all quite amusing. It's certainly very silly. Thing is, if the Democrats start dropping polling figures, and ultimately underachieve (compared to what was expected up until now) they can probably lay a good bit of the blame at Kerry's door. He failed to make himself understood (at least that's what how it appears to me) and so a good number of his political opponents might just be incensed enough to go and vote.

[Perd Hapley]

Iain, just so you understand, that lumpy swallowed Kerry's "explanation" is but the smallest part of my suspicion that he is Blackburn.  I believe I've spelled those out above.  I should add that a similar poster named mak was suddenly wisked away to Iraq just a few days ago.  Coincidence? 

Iain, c32, I don't think you guys would lie to me, but I can't believe Kerry's remark would have any other meaning than, "If you flunk out, you join the Army."  Are you sure your perception wasn't influenced by the way others reported it before you heard the comment?  I'm really not seeing how anyone would immediately, primarily think of those comments as applying to Bush or his cabinet. 

[CAnnoneer]

It ain't the Fed Gov's job to maintain any sort of national advantage in science.  That's something best left up to the private sector.

Advantage in science is the only thing that makes us remain competitive and economically afloat between the hammer of other industrialized nations and the anvil of cheap labor and outsourcing. In addition, advantage in science is crucial in national security and military tech, as has been shown repeatedly throughout history.

The government funding science is one of the most profitable investments ever, because the new technologies produced generate new industries, wealth, employment, and gigantic tax revenue. In addition, it is quite efficient because most of the research is done by severely underpaid gradstudents and postdocs, which, for doing the same work in industry would have to be paid two to four times more per capita, especially when you put in benefits. That is one of the chief reasons why much of R&D is declining in industry and is increasingly outsourced to academia.

Finally, technological developments naturally follow from fundamental developments, and thus corporations research would ultimately stifle itself because it inherently would not target fundamental developments. Corporations are working hard on trying to have at least some of their resources in what they call "long-term high-risk" projects but such are only a small percentage of their total effort and are largely dependent on individual champions, which come and go.

In conclusion, federal funding for fundamental and applied research is just as much a wise choice for a government to do as is national security and maintaining a strong infrastructure in the homeland. Without it, we'll regress into a backwater third-world hellhole faster than you can say "Would you like ketchup with the fries?"