Author Topic: Confederate Flag Brouhaha  (Read 14366 times)

makattak

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Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« on: June 23, 2015, 02:37:43 PM »
So, apparently a number of places are removing the Confederate flag.

(http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2015/06/22/petition-mississippi-confederate-flag/29113157/
http://news.yahoo.com/lawmakers-changing-tone-flag-follows-15-years-refusal-083420119.html
https://twitter.com/CNBCnow/status/613384186871816193
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/confederate-flag-walmart-south-carolina/index.html)

What say APS about this?

Personally, I'm not invested in the flag. I'm now in the South, and I have southern heritage, but I grew up a midwesterner and still identify as such.

Clearly, the flag represents racism to some- both those supporting white supremacy and those victimized by it.

However, I also see that it represents something else to honorable southerners: the South hasn't been fighting over this because people are racist. It represents their culture and history. As I read somewhere else "Heritage, not hate."

So, personally, I will not and do not use or fly the flag. But, to completely discount the people who see it as a symbol of their culture in favor of the racists who use it seems also wrong.

What I'm saying is, I'm torn. I understand both sides, but cannot come down on one or the other. It would be nice if Southerners could find another symbol not tied to racism and white supremacy, but we have to take the cards as they are dealt.

So, again, what does APS say?
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vaskidmark

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2015, 02:45:03 PM »
Guns represent evil and killing and having a short penis, right?

And I'm not even going to suggest a discussion of whether or not the Civil War of Norther Aggression was, on either side, about slavery.  Nope.  Just not gonna do that.

stay safe.
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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2015, 02:59:53 PM »
I'm not sure why the Stars and Bars was "a thing" 150 years ago, for it to finally be a bone of contention now... Seems like another example of "Peace with honor" gone too far. Like how much of Japan is ignorant of what they did in WWII today.

That said, It's primarily a Democrat flag, so I'm okay with it coming down.
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MechAg94

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2015, 03:05:27 PM »
I thought the "Stars and Bars" was a different flag.  Wiki says the one most displayed is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.  The "Bonnie Blue Flag" was another one.  I think you could go out in public wearing most of the Confederate Flags and very few would even know what it was.  


It just seems to me that too many people want to erase parts of history they don't like.  They seem to have some need that their history be perfect according to whatever moral values they strive for at the time.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2015, 03:13:01 PM »
I thought the "Stars and Bars" was a different flag.  Wiki says the one most displayed is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.  The "Bonnie Blue Flag" was another one.  


It just seems to me that too many people want to erase parts of history they don't like.  They seem to have some need that their history be perfect according to whatever moral values they strive for at the time.

Yeah, I guess the "Stars and Bars" was the circle with the three stripes, and the "X" with stars, or Virginia Battle flag was officially called "The Stainless Banner" or somesuch.

Anyway, taking a flag down at the statehouse is hardly "erasing history". Nor is removing it from license plates etc.

Calling a spade a spade, everyone knows that the Confederate flag displays have a large part of implied defiance about them, with a thin trapping of "Muh Histry!" wrapped around it. And that some of it's prominence came back in the 1950's and 60's during the Civil Right's era.

It's hardly as if there's to be a nationwide confiscation of all flags, or removal of any and all depiction of that flag from history books or... whatever.

And since I sense the thread is going to "go there"... I'll dismantle the Southern Apologist "Muh 'Histry!" argument now so we can put this behind us.

Quote
The civil war was a complex issue, about states rights, representation in Congress and the electoral college, and how the admission of new states to the Union would affect that. And massive economic differences between the North and the South.

Except... States don't have rights, people do, states have powers.

And the concerns over representation in Congress and the Electoral College, was out of a desire to maintain a majority to prevent the Federal government from banning slavery.

Same for the admission of new states, concerns whether they'd be slave or free.

And the economic stress between the industrial/immigrant North. And the agrarian/slave South.

Then there's the pesky issue of the Articles of Confederacy, the various states declarations of secession all mentioning slavery early, prominently, and vehemently...

The majority of men who fought for the Confederacy didn't own slaves? Except of course, what American doesn't dream he might be rich someday and um, back then, being rich meant you'd... own some slaves?

Oops, well, dang. Sorry South... It was 100% about slavery after all.

Seriously, they lost. Why any public institution was allowed to fly that flag 150 years ago after the surrender at Appomattox is beyond me, for this to even be a bone of contention now.
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castle key

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2015, 03:27:39 PM »
If we burn/urinate on/trample/etc. the US flag it is no big deal. Simply free speech. This is just a piece of cloth.

This battle flag, however, will incite absolute mayhem.
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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2015, 04:18:13 PM »
Born in the North.  I have at least one ancestor who killed southerners and was in turn maimed and then interned at Andersonville.

I say let the various Confederate flags fly early and often.

If some black folks are pissy about it, then they should have had the gumption to free themselves instead of waiting for good, corn-fed northern boys (like my ancestor) to do it for them.  They did not fight and earn their freedom so they don't have the moral authority to tell the descendants of their former captors to not fly the various symbols of their lost confederacy.  That right is reserved for those men who did the fighting and liberating.  And they managed the task in their time well enough.

Besides, the anti-confederate symbol sorts usually are more anti-white than they are anti-confederate.  They would oppose ANY symbol that celebrated a common white culture(1).

So I say tell the smarmy whiners to stuff a rag in it and if the local folk want to fly the flag, let it fly.





(1) In some states, given local cuisine, I can see the following as a likely banner:
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zxcvbob

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 04:18:44 PM »
Take it down from the state capitals.  Don't take it down from Confederate monuments, museums, and cemeteries.
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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 04:35:12 PM »
I really wish conservatives would find less stupid causes to rally around. So much important stuff happening in the world and the inability to use state.gov funds to brag about the fact that your ancestors liked slaves and sucked at war is what fires the base up. Dumbasses.
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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 04:41:08 PM »
Take it down from the state capitals.  Don't take it down from Confederate monuments, museums, and cemeteries.

I suspect the monuments will be the next to go.
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Andiron

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2015, 04:53:10 PM »
It just seems to me that too many people want to erase parts of history they don't like.  They seem to have some need that their history be perfect according to whatever moral values they strive for at the time.


I agree.  It's the usual suspects throwing a fit about something they don't like,  and banking on their bullshit indignation to get their way.  History/culture/whatever doesn't come into it.   

Just more SJW hand wringing.
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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 05:16:26 PM »
I really wish conservatives would find less stupid causes to rally around.

I can only speak to the SC part of this mess.

I'm more pissed off that we (as in SC) have agitators calling for the removal of a flag from a memorial that no one really gave a *expletive deleted*it about before Wednesday of last week. And a governor who is seeking to accommodate them instead of telling them to go to hell and mind their own business while we grieve. And it's all knee jerk reactionary bullshit from a horrible event that had absolutely nothing at all to do with the flag and memorial. 

The flag was very appropriately removed from the Statehouse dome back in 2000. There was a lot of fighting over that but in the end, I have to agree that it does not belong on the dome.

And also, HuffPo and various other liberal organizations can go and *expletive deleted*ck themselves. They tripped over themselves rushing to call everyone in my state that isn't black racists and portray us as crackers after murders.

I'm not going to claim "Heritage not hate" or anything like that, but I am going to tell the liberal *expletive deleted*ers to go and *expletive deleted*ck themselves with a rusty string of barbed wire. And the same thing to the governor.

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 05:18:38 PM »

And I'm not even going to suggest a discussion of whether or not the Civil War of Norther Aggression was, on either side, about slavery.  Nope.  Just not gonna do that.

stay safe.
. It was not only about slavery.   [popcorn]

Now if people want to get fed up over flags that they assume (falsely) represent slavery, the Stars and Stripes flew for quite a bit longer while slavery was all the rage. I am sure the Stars and Stripes is on the checklist.
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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2015, 05:49:44 PM »
I really wish conservatives would find less stupid causes to rally around. So much important stuff happening in the world and the inability to use state.gov funds to brag about the fact that your ancestors liked slaves and sucked at war is what fires the base up. Dumbasses.

"Sucked at war??" :O  Careful there.   The Yanks thought there would be one battle and the South would be history. They were a tad surprised it didn't happen that way.  And most of the better generals went south    so many wanted West Point closed down.

The north won because they had more industry, more railroad and better communications than the Confederacy .
There were many southern  commanders who were superior to their northern counterparts.

Having said that, I will say I agree with your main point ..... it is a dumb   cause.
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Balog

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2015, 07:03:17 PM »
. It was not only about slavery.   [popcorn]


You should tell that to the people on the Confederate side who wrote the extensive documentation laying out their rationale for war, because they sure as hell thought it was. I guess Jefferson Davis didn't understand the true motives of the Confederacy as well as you.
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Balog

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2015, 07:06:31 PM »
"Sucked at war??" :O  Careful there.   The Yanks thought there would be one battle and the South would be history. They were a tad surprised it didn't happen that way.  And most of the better generals went south    so many wanted West Point closed down.

The north won because they had more industry, more railroad and better communications than the Confederacy .
There were many southern  commanders who were superior to their northern counterparts.

Having said that, I will say I agree with your main point ..... it is a dumb   cause.

A nation's skill at war is more than battlefield acumen, although there were certainly plenty of idiots to go around on both sides cough cough J.E.B. Stuart prancing around instead of scouting for intel cough cough Pickett's charge cough cough.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2015, 07:26:42 PM »
You should tell that to the people on the Confederate side who wrote the extensive documentation laying out their rationale for war, because they sure as hell thought it was. I guess Jefferson Davis didn't understand the true motives of the Confederacy as well as you.

He said it wasn't only about slavery, which is obviously true. You got baited, but good.  :P


I really wish conservatives would find less stupid causes to rally around. So much important stuff happening in the world and the inability to use state.gov funds to brag about the fact that your ancestors liked slaves and sucked at war is what fires the base up. Dumbasses.

Who's fired up?  ???
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zxcvbob

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2015, 07:38:00 PM »
Born in the North.  I have at least one ancestor who killed southerners and was in turn maimed and then interned at Andersonville.

I say let the various Confederate flags fly early and often.

If some black folks are pissy about it, then they should have had the gumption to free themselves instead of waiting for good, corn-fed northern boys (like my ancestor) to do it for them.  They did not fight and earn their freedom so they don't have the moral authority to tell the descendants of their former captors to not fly the various symbols of their lost confederacy.  That right is reserved for those men who did the fighting and liberating.  And they managed the task in their time well enough.

Besides, the anti-confederate symbol sorts usually are more anti-white than they are anti-confederate.  They would oppose ANY symbol that celebrated a common white culture(1).

So I say tell the smarmy whiners to stuff a rag in it and if the local folk want to fly the flag, let it fly.


(1) In some states, given local cuisine, I can see the following as a likely banner:


Nicely put.

Civil wars (small ones) have been fought over what brand of mayonnaise. 

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freakazoid

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2015, 07:42:17 PM »
I really wish conservatives would find less stupid causes to rally around. So much important stuff happening in the world and the inability to use state.gov funds to brag about the fact that your ancestors liked slaves and sucked at war is what fires the base up. Dumbasses.

It's not conservatives who are rallying around stupid causes...
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2015, 07:57:23 PM »
A good page about the flags of the confederacy

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html
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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2015, 08:09:42 PM »
"Sucked at war??" :O  Careful there.   The Yanks thought there would be one battle and the South would be history. They were a tad surprised it didn't happen that way.  And most of the better generals went south    so many wanted West Point closed down.

The north won because they had more industry, more railroad and better communications than the Confederacy .
There were many southern  commanders who were superior to their northern counterparts.

Having said that, I will say I agree with your main point ..... it is a dumb   cause.

They were "superior" commanders who chose the side with less of an industrial base and more importantly the inferior moral position.

They obviously didn't have the wisdom to choose the correct side. They had a fatal defect in their reasoning; not a good trait in a commander.

  
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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2015, 08:12:08 PM »
This is the flag the that the KKK (spit) has always adopted and used:



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MechAg94

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2015, 08:20:13 PM »
Nicely put.

Civil wars (small ones) have been fought over what brand of mayonnaise. 


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freakazoid

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Re: Confederate Flag Brouhaha
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2015, 08:49:29 PM »
They were "superior" commanders who chose the side with less of an industrial base and more importantly the inferior moral position.

They obviously didn't have the wisdom to choose the correct side. They had a fatal defect in their reasoning; not a good trait in a commander.

  



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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2015, 08:53:42 PM »
Bury My Heart at Appomattox.

The War Between the States is an ugly piece of history. I am not a Southern Apologist, except sometimes. Certainly not a confederate apologist. The Old South was rotten in many ways, and not just slavery. I believe it was in ways a rigid system that stifled enterprise and progress.

That said, the fighting and bleeding in the war was not done by the perfumed aristocrats on their well-staffed plantations. It was done mostly by farmers and sharecroppers, who fought a Northern invasion. I do not wish to pass over the jingoism present on both sides in the days leading up to the war. Both sides were asking for it. And both sides paid for it. I don't think I even need to mention in this group that white supremacy was stock in trade on both sides of the Potomac in 1861.

Which brings us to the reason the Battle Flag still flies on the South Carolina Confederate War Memorial, and why the South has such a deep and abiding cultural memory of the War.

22.6 percent of Southern men who were between the ages of 20 and 24 in 1860 lost their lives because of the war. (direct quote from History.com)

If you pile on top of that sheer and catastrophic loss of life caused by the total war waged by Sherman, Sheridan, and Grant (which was never visited upon the North, even when Lee marched into PA), as well as the total economic losses in livestock, cotton, and other goods, and even in addition to that, the real and perceived injustices of Reconstruction--

You have a very ugly soup, which has manifested itself in the last 50 years mostly as harmless, outsized, cultural pride and not a small sensitivity to redneck jokes. And the flying of the Battle Flag.

Factor in also the near-total lack of these experiences in the North, especially the Northeast, where many families have not even been in the country for more than 4 generations, tops. It's no wonder my northern friends don't get it, and Facebook is awash with posts telling me to "Get over it" and that one caller to Mike Gallagher this morning said the South needed to "submit" to the North. *spit*

It is a damnable shame that the War occurred and that people died under the flags of the confederacy. It is a somewhat less damnable shame, in my opinion, that the flag was used as a minor accessory, for a short period of time, to repress people of color.

If the South, as a cultural unit, has made mistakes, most of us have owned it. We paid for our sins up to and after 1865 in blood. I think South Carolina has earned the right to put the Battle Flag, or any other flag it desires, on the War Memorial.

I refuse to apologize for the despicable turd who murdered those poor people. I refuse to be associated with him. I will tell the rest of the world to go to hell before I allow them to tell me what that flag does and does not stand for.

The greatest tragedy, is how fast the cultural Left was able to leverage a long-dormant issue, chiefly with the use of social media, into a defining moment for a State that really just wants to mind its own business and be left alone. And I resent that capability and its implications much more than I resent the possibility of the Flag being taken down. Because that is going to have ever-increasing ramifications down the line. Think of it--a Governor calls a press conference over a nearly-dead issue in the space of 48 hours. All because some ignorant *expletive deleted*ck decided to be outraged that the Battle Flag wasn't at half mast on Thursday.

That's real power.

Lincoln would have loved that *expletive deleted*it.

*expletive deleted*ck me, I'm done. Bury my heart at Appomattox. You can have the goddamned flag, and the rest of the country.



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