The Greek game of Chicken

[De Selby]

Umm, the FSA voted for more, more, more for how long?

  Greece has been under more conservative government throughout this time.  What big social programs did they roll out with the EU financing?  Can you name one?

[De Selby]

Well, in the first place the Greeks haven't kicked the *expletive deleted*it out of the French three times in less then 70 years.

In the second place, the Greeks aren't shouldering and accepting the debts of former rogue  governments with only half a country left.

And in the third place, they aren't willing to buckle down and restore fiscal order, like the Germans did.  They not only want to spend as they have in the past, they want to spend MORE then they have in the past.  

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-27/germany-deserved-debt-relief-greece-doesn-t-i5fdca2y

To sum up from the above article:

In other words, this isn't an issue of fairness but rather strategic worth.  That makes sense, but it doesn't make the Greek state an immoral deadbeat and the German gov somehow a stalwart of responsibility.  Germany got lots of welfare to be rich.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

 

Lefties at the NY Times are challenged to put their money where their loud mouths are and bail out Greece themselves, with their own money.

Personally, I'm not holding my breath.  Lefty socialism is all about spending other peoples' money.  It's a lot less fun when you have to spend your own money.

http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2015/07/08/a-modest-proposal-for-the-new-york-times/?singlepage=true

[brimic]

In other words, this isn't an issue of fairness but rather strategic worth.  That makes sense, but it doesn't make the Greek state an immoral deadbeat and the German gov somehow a stalwart of responsibility.  Germany got lots of welfare to be rich.

Somewhat true.
If europe didn't have their defense provided for by sugardaddy uncle sam, they couldn't afford the welfare states that they currently have.

I say we park a few drones over greece to provide live 24/7 video feeds of what socialism fail looks like, it'll get real entertaining when they start eating eachother. Of course we would never do that because people will start making the connection between our own socialist welfare state, our unpayable debt, and either start offing the politicians or stocking up on barbeque sauce.

[TommyGunn]

In other words, this isn't an issue of fairness but rather strategic worth.  That makes sense, but it doesn't make the Greek state an immoral deadbeat and the German gov somehow a stalwart of responsibility.  Germany got lots of welfare to be rich.

It doesn't have to make the Greeks an immoral deadbeat ....the Greeks accomplished that all by themselves.They want to retire at 50 with great pensions.....they won't pay taxes, they want the party but not the prep.
They wanna be bailed out by other peoples' hard earned $$$$. 
I'm not sure there's even any "strategic worth" involved. 

[Scout26]

In other words, this isn't an issue of fairness but rather strategic worth.  That makes sense, but it doesn't make the Greek state an immoral deadbeat and the German gov somehow a stalwart of responsibility.  Germany got lots of welfare to be rich.

True, to an extent.  But again, they were also not spending like drunken Greek sailors, during the 50's, 60's and 70's.  They controlled their budgets and only slowly allowed welfare as they became more prosperous.  Don't forget they self funded reunification with half of the country. 

Greece wants to continue to spend and spend even more.  Did you even read the article are are you so firmly rooted in your belief that you are not even willing to consider other arguments?

[SADShooter]

I'm still a bit stunned at the equation of the Marshall Plan with contemporary social welfare financed with borrowed money.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Welfare didn't make Germany rich.  Germany made Germany rich.  If welfare could make you rich then Greece would be well off today.  So would all of the welfare deadbeats living on the dole here in the US.  They aren't, obviously.

Welfare doesn't make you rich.  The rich didn't get rich because of welfare.

More welfare to Greece will not help Greece.  It would help the current crop of politcritters running Greece, by giving them a chance to kick the can down the road a little longer until they're out of office.  Might also help some of the other deadebeat EU nations by preserving the financiers they all depend on to fund their welfare states.  But it would not help Greece or the Greek people.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

And seriously, people actually think that Greece deserve a debt write-off because Germany got one back in the 1950s?  Do any of these people know and understand why Germany got that write-off way back then?

Do these people think present-day Greece is anything like post-WWII Germany?

[TommyGunn]

  Greece has been under more conservative government throughout this time.  What big social programs did they roll out with the EU financing?  Can you name one?

Calling recent Greek government   gov.  conservative is like calling Hitler a  humanitarian.

[Scout26]

  Greece has been under more conservative government throughout this time.  What big social programs did they roll out with the EU financing?  Can you name one?

If by "more conservative" you mean "Still to the left of the US Democrat party, but not quite full blown socialists", then yes, they have.  The other times they were being run by full-blown socialists. Each completing with the other to buy as many votes as they could with Europe's (e.g. Germany's) money.

Here, try this.  It's from The Nation  when even US lefties tell you you done F'd up, well:  http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/06/21/opinion/Big-Fat-Greek-Spending-Lessons-for-a-Welfare-State-30132019.html

Money quote:

First, Greece launched a large scale welfare upgrading, including an expansion of social insurance coverage and an increased access to health care in the 1980s.

While government revenue is approximately 37 per cent of GDP, the over-committed social welfare benefits have pushed up public current expenditure to nearly 90 per cent of its total revenue, leaving only a small remaining portion for interest payments and investment.

And throw on the fact that you are grossly overspending and you have the recipe for disaster.

[De Selby]

Welfare didn't make Germany rich.  Germany made Germany rich.  If welfare could make you rich then Greece would be well off today.  So would all of the welfare deadbeats living on the dole here in the US.  They aren't, obviously.

Welfare doesn't make you rich.  The rich didn't get rich because of welfare.

More welfare to Greece will not help Greece.  It would help the current crop of politcritters running Greece, by giving them a chance to kick the can down the road a little longer until they're out of office.  Might also help some of the other deadebeat EU nations by preserving the financiers they all depend on.  But it would not help Greece or the Greek people.

So you don't think the handouts had any effect on the German economy?

The spending Greece did with its EU money (as opposed to programs that were already in place long before) was primarily defense spending, which benefitted NATO suppliers (read- multinational defense firms.)

That's what's so funny about all the hysteria - Greece spent its money on the NATO alliance that is now trying to loot its social welfare to pay the bill.  For all the whining about Europe not doing any heavy lifting on its own defence that goes on here, you'd think there would be some sympathy.  Not exactly a story of handouts or bad financial management.

[De Selby]

If by "more conservative" you mean "Still to the left of the US Democrat party, but not quite full blown socialists", then yes, they have.  The other times they were being run by full-blown socialists. Each completing with the other to buy as many votes as they could with Europe's (e.g. Germany's) money.

Here, try this.  It's from The Nation  when even US lefties tell you you done F'd up, well:  http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/06/21/opinion/Big-Fat-Greek-Spending-Lessons-for-a-Welfare-State-30132019.html

Money quote:

And throw on the fact that you are grossly overspending and you have the recipe for disaster.

Yep, this social programs were before the EU.  Here's where the loan money went:  http://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-greeces-military-budget-is-so-high-2015-6

[brimic]

So you don't think the handouts had any effect on the German economy?

The spending Greece did with its EU money (as opposed to programs that were already in place long before) was primarily defense spending, which benefitted NATO suppliers (read- multinational defense firms.)

That's what's so funny about all the hysteria - Greece spent its money on the NATO alliance that is now trying to loot its social welfare to pay the bill.  For all the whining about Europe not doing any heavy lifting on its own defence that goes on here, you'd think there would be some sympathy.  Not exactly a story of handouts or bad financial management.

Nope, no sympathy, none. They were still spending money they didn't have. Their socialist system collapsed on a bit faster time line than all the others will.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

So you don't think the handouts had any effect on the German economy?

The spending Greece did with its EU money (as opposed to programs that were already in place long before) was primarily defense spending, which benefitted NATO suppliers (read- multinational defense firms.)

That's what's so funny about all the hysteria - Greece spent its money on the NATO alliance that is now trying to loot its social welfare to pay the bill.  For all the whining about Europe not doing any heavy lifting on its own defence that goes on here, you'd think there would be some sympathy.  Not exactly a story of handouts or bad financial management.

Yep, this social programs were before the EU.  Here's where the loan money went:  http://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-greeces-military-budget-is-so-high-2015-6

Yeah, that's a great big math fail.

Per your linked article, Greece spends 2.4% of GDP on defense.  Other sources I've checked generally agree with that number.

Do you know what Greece's total government spending is vs GDP?  Obviously it varies a little year to year, but it's been between about 45% and 55% every year since 1990, except 2013 when it spiked to 60%.  (1990 is the oldest data I can easily find).  Let's call it 50% for discussion's sake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Economic_statistics_table
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-spending-to-gdp

50% of GDP is general government.  2.4% on defense.  47.6% on non-defense government.

Still want to believe that Greece spent all that money defending NATO?

Your linked article even explains why Greece has the military it does, and it ain't because they're looking out for the greater good of NATO.  Seriously man, where do you come up with this stuff?

[Scout26]

Yep, this social programs were before the EU.  Here's where the loan money went:  http://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-greeces-military-budget-is-so-high-2015-6

Do you even read what you post, much less what anyone else posts?

The money quote from YOUR linked article:

Greece’s overall fear of Turkey has kept the country consistently over-spending.

“One could argue that with 1,300 tanks, more than twice the number in the UK, Greece has many more than it needs. But no one forced it to spend so much. It happened because of the threat perception from Turkey and the need to balance Turkey militarily,”

So who did it to the Greeks again?

[brimic]

So who did it to the Greeks again?

They greeked themselves...?

[De Selby]

Do you even read what you post, much less what anyone else posts?

The money quote from YOUR linked article:

So who did it to the Greeks again?

Of course no one forced them to spend it - but it's not exactly like all the Greek citizens were partying on the dole and now paying it back.

[French G.]

Yes, it is exactly like that. Even if they had spent every euro dime on defense it is because they had no money from elsewhere. Protected welfare, a mob that screams at any hint of austerity and a corrupt and bloated government that is so sorry that it cannot collect taxes to pay for itself.

[SADShooter]

Of course no one forced them to spend it - but it's not exactly like all the Greek citizens were partying on the dole and now paying it back.

If I loan you money for rent, or your car payment so you can get to and from work, and you in turn spend it on entertainment and conveniences, how should I react when you come back asking for more money to pay your rent and car payment because the landlord and repo man are at the door?

[Ben]

If I loan you money for rent, or your car payment so you can get to and from work, and you in turn spend it on entertainment and conveniences, how should I react when you come back asking for more money to pay your rent and car payment because the landlord and repo man are at the door?

That.

[De Selby]

If I loan you money for rent, or your car payment so you can get to and from work, and you in turn spend it on entertainment and conveniences, how should I react when you come back asking for more money to pay your rent and car payment because the landlord and repo man are at the door?

No, that isn't a valid comparison. This is more like if I loan your employer money for executive pay, and then demand you give me a piece of your retirement to pay back the bill.  After all, you're enjoying your lifestyle on his money and should share in his debts, right?

[Hawkmoon]

The spending Greece did with its EU money (as opposed to programs that were already in place long before) was primarily defense spending, which benefitted NATO suppliers (read- multinational defense firms.)

That's what's so funny about all the hysteria - Greece spent its money on the NATO alliance that is now trying to loot its social welfare to pay the bill.  For all the whining about Europe not doing any heavy lifting on its own defence that goes on here, you'd think there would be some sympathy.  Not exactly a story of handouts or bad financial management.

Wrong.

A couple of e-mails from a friend in Greece:

The whole point here, is that while everyone knows that this is why we're bankrupt (in a country of 11 million people we have 800,000 public sector workers, not including another as many in govt-owned and funded utilities companies, or the military), the current government refuses to make any reforms. They only want to do what everyone before was doing: raise taxes. In a country that desperately wants to attract ANY form of foreign investment it can! With Bulgaria at our border, which has a flat 10% income and company tax!

Our tax rates are high, so we should have had no problems financially... except nobody actually pays them. In the EU we have the highest % rate of uncollected taxes, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 80%!

This year my income tax rate worked out to 41%, in real numbers. And I actually paid it, about a month and a half ahead of time, because I expect to lose any money I have in the bank anyway.

And

Here's a quick little post in Facebook from this morning, which pretty much says it all (by Thanos Tzimeros, translated by yours truly).

------------------
THIS IS THE PENSIONS' SYSTEM THAT TSIPRAS WANTS TO KEEP!

All populists claim they care for the pensions of 'low-income' pensioners, which will be cut. But how many 'low-income' pensioners are there, really? Here is the official data from the Ministry of Work & Pensions:

278,833 pensioners earn between 1500 and 2000 euros a month, 33,145 earn 2000 to 2500, 11,281 from 2500 up to and above 4000 euros.

929,936 people have two pensions, 297,899 people have 3 pensions, 50,628 have 4, 11,036 people 5 and 1,953 people get between 6 and 10 pensions!

Most pensioners are younger than 60! [emphasis added]
All these people must be paid for with extortionate taxes, by the worker of 500 euros (per month), the unemployed who has a house in his name and the businessman who's been twirling his thumbs for the past two years, all of whom still must pay the newly-instituted special tax (haratsi). Samaras (our previous, supposedly right-wing PM) and Tsipras are ultimately the same. Destroyers of our country, focusing on their political clientèle.

[De Selby]

Yet somehow similar levels of government spending in Germany are fine:http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.CON.GOVT.ZS

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Similar how.? In four outa 5 years the Germans significantly under spent the Greeks 

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