Trump and McCain

[Perd Hapley]

Of all the things for which McCain could be criticized, Trump goes after the POW thing?  And the conservatives that backed him seem to be backing him up on this.  How much is he paying these bozos, and how can I get some?

[wmenorr67]

I think Trump has just gotten to the point he wants to see how many people he can piss off.

[RocketMan]

I don't believe Trump ever intended to run a full campaign to the WH.  This may be his bailout plan.

[Pb]

I hope Trump doesn't pull a Perot on us to help his friend Hillary into the WH.

I despise McCain, but hate Trump even more.

And yes, McCain is a war hero.

[roo_ster]

I think Trump messed up (faux pas) in the specifics of his counter-attack to McCain's initial attack on him and his supporters.  Trump had the right instinct, but the wrong verbiage.  I doubt this will hurt him too much in the polls, given that McCain has excoriated both Trump's supporters particularly and anti-establishment GOPers generally.  McCain has pissed on GOP grassroots and they have grown thorny towards him.  Same with many veterans who have dug into McCain's record. 

I have little problem with sticking it to McCain.  I think very little of him and do not find him an honorable man.  While I don't think Trump is the right man to be the GOP nominee, I hope he sticks around to stick it to McCain and folk like him.  Good and hard.

FYI:

John McCain: When "Tokyo Rose" Ran for President
http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-tokyo-rose-ran-for-president/

McCain and the POW Cover-Up
http://www.unz.com/article/mccain-and-the-pow-cover-up/

American Pravda: Was Rambo Right?
http://www.unz.com/article/was-rambo-right/


I doubt Trump is informed as to most of what is in McCain's very troubled past.  So I can not give Trump the benefit of the knowledge of the documentation pointing to McCain's other than admirable behavior.  And even if Trump was so informed, he would not be likely to use them to whack McCain on the head, given Trump's own history.  I think Trump responded instinctively:
1. In response to an attack by McCain. 
2. Because Trump can smell a rat in McCain.

I see the GOP establishment (and their mouthpieces) going apey over this and the MSM is helping them to stir this up, but I think both will be disappointed.

[roo_ster]

Yet Mr. Trump’s comments on Saturday drew condemnation from his rivals and senior officials in the party at a scale far greater than the response to his portrayal of Mexican immigrants as rapists. The response was an indication of the reverence many Republicans have for military service and sacrifice. But it was also something more: their best opening yet to marginalize Mr. Trump. 

After weeks when many of them treaded lightly around Mr. Trump, who once again Saturday refused to rule out a third-party run, Republican leaders seized the opportunity to unambiguously speak out against a candidate they see as effectively hijacking their primaries.

Yet for all the outrage among party elites, some attendees at the Christian conservative conference where Mr. Trump made his comments were not nearly as offended, a reminder of the chasm between the Republican power structure and its grass roots.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You should see some of the garbage being trotted out by some folks. The tea party has some folks who should draw a check from the opposition


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[Perd Hapley]

I'm not all that concerned with Mr. McCain himself. I'm just shocked at the level of tolerance among certain people for Mr. Trump's insult to current and former prisoners of war. As wmennor said, it seems as if he's trying to offend the sort of people who've rallied to him over the last couple of weeks.

[brimic]

I have little problem with sticking it to McCain.  I think very little of him and do not find him an honorable man.  While I don't think Trump is the right man to be the GOP nominee, I hope he sticks around to stick it to McCain and folk like him.  Good and hard.

+1
McCain has made an entire career of being a war hero/POW, its time someone called him out.

[Perd Hapley]

+1
McCain has made an entire career of being a war hero/POW, its time someone called him out.

By having some rich guy say that people who get captured are losers? Again, there are any number of substantive things on which to call out McCain, which do not involve dismissing POWs as failures.

[SADShooter]

By having some rich guy say that people who get captured are losers? Again, there are any number of substantive things on which to call out McCain, which do not involve dismissing POWs as failures.

This. Criticism of McCain's political career or his trading on his service/captivity do not alter his service record. I'm certainly no fan of or apologist for his "accomplishments" in the Senate.

He could have turned coat under suffering most of us never have to face, and didn't. Perhaps that experience somehow altered or broke him. Attacking him for it is foolish at best or vile and repugnant at worst.

[vaskidmark]

I'm not all that concerned with Mr. McCain himself. I'm just shocked at the level of tolerance among certain people for Mr. Trump's insult to current and former prisoners of war. As wmennor said, it seems as if he's trying to offend the sort of people who've rallied to him over the last couple of weeks.

Did trump actually insult McCain's military service record, or did Trump do a fast rake over the coals of his public service record post military service?

stay safe.

[SADShooter]

Did trump actually insult McCain's military service record, or did Trump do a fast rake over the coals of his public service record post military service?

stay safe.

Close paraphrase: "McCain's a war hero because he got captured. I prefer people who don't get captured."

If all the aviators who were shot down over North Vietnam had just been better pilots, or paid closer attention to their SERE training...

[roo_ster]

You should see some of the garbage being trotted out by some folks. The tea party has some folks who should draw a check from the opposition


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Some do seem to have jumped tracks to Crazy Train, but opposition to McCain is in no way indicative of support of the Dems or the left in general.  Same with opposition to establishment GOPers.  GOP is not going to go anywhere with the current GOP leadership, so knocking them down & about is a necessary first step.

And McCain has a lot of garbage in his past to dig up, starting at Annapolis. 

Did trump actually insult McCain's military service record, or did Trump do a fast rake over the coals of his public service record post military service?

stay safe.

I have read transcripts, not seen the video, but I think Trump trod on his generative bits.  Maybe not with a golf shoe, but enough to smart a bit.

This. Criticism of McCain's political career or his trading on his service/captivity do not alter his service record. I'm certainly no fan of or apologist for his "accomplishments" in the Senate.

He could have turned coat under suffering most of us never have to face, and didn't. Perhaps that experience somehow altered or broke him. Attacking him for it is foolish at best or vile and repugnant at worst.

Do read Schaumberg's POW article and then Unz's Tokyo Rose article.  The POW deal looks pretty tight.  Tokyo Rose less so, but still plausible. 

Maybe the McCain war hero legend is real.  It would not be the first time a feckless screw-up found sterner stuff inside and became hard under hard circumstances.  But there are some veteran POWs who really, really despise him.  Sure, maybe THEY are the ones who broke and McCain is a convenient target/scapegoat.  Or maybe McCain is deserving of their anger. 

Either way, even assuming exemplary conduct on his part in VN, his behavior before and after makes me despise him.

[SADShooter]

Some do seem to have jumped tracks to Crazy Train, but opposition to McCain is in no way indicative of support of the Dems or the left in general.  Same with opposition to establishment GOPers.  GOP is not going to go anywhere with the current GOP leadership, so knocking them down & about is a necessary first step.

And McCain has a lot of garbage in his past to dig up, starting at Annapolis. 


I have read transcripts, not seen the video, but I think Trump trod on his generative bits.  Maybe not with a golf shoe, but enough to smart a bit.

Do read Schaumberg's POW article and then Unz's Tokyo Rose article.  The POW deal looks pretty tight.  Tokyo Rose less so, but still plausible. 

Maybe the McCain war hero legend is real.  It would not be the first time a feckless screw-up found sterner stuff inside and became hard under hard circumstances.  But there are some veteran POWs who really, really despise him.  Sure, maybe THEY are the ones who broke and McCain is a convenient target/scapegoat.  Or maybe McCain is deserving of their anger. 

Either way, even assuming exemplary conduct on his part in VN, his behavior before and after makes me despise him.

I'll look for them, thanks. Meantime, are the nature and scope of his injuries sustained during captivity in dispute?

[roo_ster]

I'll look for them, thanks. Meantime, are the nature and scope of his injuries sustained during captivity in dispute?

Yes.

Some dispute that his injuries occurred before he was captured while ejecting from his A-4 and not during captivity.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Yeah, no, I'm sorry, I don't like McCaine either, but you don't go mouthing off about his time as a POW like that.

Trump seems to be running a shock value campaign. Which would be fine if he was trying to be the next Alice Cooper, but not so much in a political campaign.

[Perd Hapley]

Someone, I think it was in an email to a local radio station, asked what Trump must think of those who died in battle. They must really be failures, by Trump's reasoning.

[roo_ster]

Yeah, no, I'm sorry, I don't like McCaine either, but you don't go mouthing off about his time as a POW like that.

Trump seems to be running a shock value campaign. Which would be fine if he was trying to be the next Alice Cooper, but not so much in a political campaign.

Alice does seem fond of blond(e)s.

[Andiron]

Close paraphrase: "McCain's a war hero because he got captured. I prefer people who don't get captured."

Strike the last bit out and it's a statement of fact, not a criticism of POWs.  Without captivity in Nam,  McCain would have nothing to go on.

[SADShooter]

Strike the last bit out and it's a statement of fact, not a criticism of POWs.  Without captivity in Nam,  McCain would have nothing to go on.

Of course, but the implication is that somehow McCain was incompetent, and by extension all POWs or casualties. Whatever the truth about McCain's character, undisputed is that he was flying combat missions over Vietnam while Trump was receiving student and bone spur deferments. Trump's standing on this question isn't exactly impeccable.

[Andiron]

I'm only talking about the controversial statement in question.  I have no interest in comparing them, they're both turds.

 McCain doesn't get a pass on criticism simply because he served.    *  He's played his war record for all it's worth,  which makes it fair game.  Trump stepping on his dick is irrelevant.

[HankB]

McCain won't be the first veteran who served honorably in the military, and - in my view - dishonorably in the political arena. There's plenty of McCain to criticize without bringing his service record into it, which IMHO was a Trump mistake.

I've had a low opinion of McCain ever since he was one of the Keating Five, and nothing he's done or said since has done anything to change my mind about him; if anything, I hold him in lower regard just about every time he opens his mouth.

[Balog]

Strike the last bit out and it's a statement of fact, not a criticism of POWs.  Without captivity in Nam,  McCain would have nothing to go on.

So we can just edit out the things politicians say that are wrong and offensive? Good to know. By this logic, I completely and totally agree with every speech Obama has ever given. Some of them are only about half a sentence long but still.

[Andiron]

So we can just edit out the things politicians say that are wrong and offensive? Good to know. By this logic, I completely and totally agree with every speech Obama has ever given. Some of them are only about half a sentence long but still.

Are you seriously suggesting that the substance of what he said is incorrect?