Author Topic: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!  (Read 16277 times)

MillCreek

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makattak

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2015, 04:12:38 PM »
Poor family.

Reading the article, the son has some serious issues. It's not surprising his parents are trying to prevent him from self-destructive choices, especially when others are encouraging him in them.

Quote
— including complications from her HIV and Hepatitis C diagnoses —

Seems self-destructive choices are a pattern for him.

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

vaskidmark

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2015, 04:36:03 PM »
Poor family.

Reading the article, the son has some serious issues. It's not surprising his parents are trying to prevent him from self-destructive choices, especially when others are encouraging him in them.

Seems self-destructive choices are a pattern for him.



The alternative is the route a trans in DOC custody took - several times.  He stopped fighting to get the state to pay for the whack job and did it himself.  Court ruled a) he was not crazy and b) the state had to continue the hormone therapy they had been providing for years.  He was not completely happy with having just a stump and went at it again to convert Tab A into Slot B as a DIY project.  State ended up paying to trim up the edges, which resulted in somewhat of a Slot B.  When I left the agency he was very happy prancing around the medium-security facility so they could lock him in a single cell at night).

I'm fairly sure the docs know about the HIV and Hep C.  Their willingness to assume the risks of operating should be the only consideration besides what the guy wants to do*.  It sounds like daddy is just too humiliated to understand that his little boy is all grown up and feels just fine in frilly lace and lipstick.

stay safe.

* - the above presumes he has the funds/insurance coverage to pay for all of this without tapping into taxpayer or daddy's funds.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2015, 05:10:23 PM »
It sounds like daddy is just too humiliated to understand that his little boy is all grown up and feels just fine in frilly lace and lipstick.


'Cause self-mutilation is the key to happiness.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 06:40:12 PM »

'Cause self-mutilation is the key to happiness.

This again?

I suppose it applies to tattoos and pierced ears (not gauges, but tasteful diamond or pearl studs for instance) as well?

It's not worth arguing/discussing.  You have your moral stand, I have mine, and the guy literally in the middle of it all has his (soon to possibly be hers).

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2015, 07:06:07 PM »
48 year old with a history of depression, substance abuse and minor learning disabilities is not someone who is incompetent.

She is old enough to do whatever the hell she wants with herself. The parents are being asses.
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Andiron

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2015, 07:08:16 PM »
Grown ass man,  he can do what he wants.

He's still a guy,  I'm not playing the pronoun semantics game anymore. 
"Leftism destroys everything good." -  Ron

There is no fixing stupid. But, you can line it up in front of a wall and offer it a last smoke.

There is no such thing as a "transgender" person.  Only mental illness that should be discouraged.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2015, 07:12:54 PM »
This again?

I suppose it applies to tattoos and pierced ears (not gauges, but tasteful diamond or pearl studs for instance) as well?

It's not worth arguing/discussing.  You have your moral stand, I have mine, and the guy literally in the middle of it all has his (soon to possibly be hers).

stay safe.


Um, no. There's no moral stand in what I said. Cutting off healthy genitalia because you think you're a girl is nuts. The man needs help. The only moral angle is that some people hate him so much, they encourage him/enable him to hurt himself.
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cordex

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2015, 08:13:31 PM »
Inability to recognize or accept reality is not exactly a sign of mental health. That said, I don't care to protect him from himself. So long as he is being crazy with his own resources and will accept the results of his decision ( :laugh: I know, I know) then I don't care.

Even so, he is absolutely crazy and I totally understand why his parents are doing what they are doing even if I disagree with it.

Fitz

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2015, 08:23:34 PM »
Someone asked me once recently if "Well, would you support letting someone cut off their arms and attach wings if they felt they should have been born a jet plane"

My response? Am I paying for it? If not, fine.






He can do what he wants with his weiner. I suspect it won't matter for long given his other issues and the abnormally high post-conversion suicide rate.

That said, I refuse to pretend like he's not a complete kook. Gender Identity Disorder / Gender dysmorphia / whatever the current PC term is, is a mental disorder. Period. I refuse to cowtow to this "its perfectly normal" horseshit foisted upon us. not only is it inaccurate, but it's not doing THEM any favors, because NORMAL implies they don't need care, and their suicide rates are high enough already.
Fitz

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2015, 08:26:38 PM »
Who is paying for his self mutilation?

If its his insurance or he is paying out of pocket it's his own business what he does with his genitals.

If it is tax dollars he should be told "sorry" the state (you, me and everyone else) doesn't have a compelling reason to help him pursue his delusion with our tax dollars.

Male chromosomes? born with male genitalia? He is a male.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Firethorn

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 09:06:34 PM »
Someone asked me once recently if "Well, would you support letting someone cut off their arms and attach wings if they felt they should have been born a jet plane"

Today they don't cut it off, they 'reshape it'.  That way you're not losing all those nerve endings.

Quote
He can do what he wants with his weiner. I suspect it won't matter for long given his other issues and the abnormally high post-conversion suicide rate.

The issue is... complicated.  The best I can say is that it appears more than the surgury(and hormones and such) don't resolve the increased tendency such people have towards suicide anyways.

Quote
Gender Identity Disorder / Gender dysmorphia / whatever the current PC term is, is a mental disorder. Period.

The way I look at it today is that we have a mismatch - and the 'fix' is to make them match.  Consider this analogy:  We have blue/pink cases, and CPUs that 'prefer' to be in one or the other, hard coded in the CPU.

Which is simpler, changing the CPU, or changing out the case?  While changing the CPU is theoretically a much smaller change, it's also one that we don't know how to do - nor do we have the tools to do so even if we did.  In comparison, while swapping the case is a much bigger exterior change, it's actually easier than trying to fiddle with the internals of the CPU.

Same with humans - gender reassignment surgury is, on average, a much 'lesser' surgury than trying to muck around with the brain.

Quote
because NORMAL implies they don't need care, and their suicide rates are high enough already.

You make a good point, but part of the problem is that insisting they're actually a boy/girl isn't that helpful.  I've seen some of the results of when doctors and surgeons decided that the sex of newborns was 'plastic' and made the choice to assign a sex to babies born with damaged/malformed genitals, normally making them female because that was easier surgically.

Fast forward to the child reaching teenager years and insisting that they were a boy despite surguries to convert them to female, female hormones, etc...  Lawsuits went around all over the place.

Today's procedure in such cases is often to wait a bit and do a 'behaviorial analysis'.  They can figure, quite successfully most of the time, whether the 'natural' state of the child is male or female.  No definitive results?  Repeat the tests in 6 months or so.  Once you have a definitive result, THEN you can schedule the surguries and start hormone treatment.

Male chromosomes? born with male genitalia? He is a male.

Just curious, but what do you consider a XY person with complete androgen insensitivity?

Fitz

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 10:48:02 PM »
It very well may be a mental disorder. but it's a disorder nonetheless

And our current trend towards "nothing's wrong it's totally normal, gender is fluid, etc" is making things worse. Because reassignment is happening more often and people are coming to the decision more "lightly"

Oh, and if they express regret later? They're ostracized and marginalized by the inclusive, loving LGBTWTFBBQ community.
Fitz

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2015, 12:19:17 AM »
Someone asked me once recently if "Well, would you support letting someone cut off their arms and attach wings if they felt they should have been born a jet plane"

My response? Am I paying for it? If not, fine.

He can do what he wants with his weiner. I suspect it won't matter for long given his other issues and the abnormally high post-conversion suicide rate.

That said, I refuse to pretend like he's not a complete kook. Gender Identity Disorder / Gender dysmorphia / whatever the current PC term is, is a mental disorder. Period. I refuse to cowtow to this "its perfectly normal" horse***t foisted upon us. not only is it inaccurate, but it's not doing THEM any favors, because NORMAL implies they don't need care, and their suicide rates are high enough already.

I mostly agree with this. I don't want the government involved, except that any .gov medical licensing or certification should be revoked for anyone who performs such things on the poor, poor people that were confused enough to ask for it. Medical NGOs should cut all ties with such quack doctors. Other than that, the confused is welcome to make whatever arrangements he may.

On the personal level, these people need friends and family to keep them from self-harm, and not encourage them.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2015, 06:18:32 AM »

On the personal level, these people need friends and family to keep them from self-harm, and not encourage them.

So all the counseling and time spent with both surgical and head-shrinking docs talking about both short and long term effects and the odds of experiencing any of those before any procedure (including hormonal) is scheduled does not count?

Are you equating "not encourage them" with actively discouraging them?  Because based on the outcome, about 50% of those who get married could have used some "not encourage" if not outright discouragement.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Ron

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2015, 08:29:28 AM »
Just curious, but what do you consider a XY person with complete androgen insensitivity?

Female genitalia? female.

For those who were born partially androgen insensitive is where things get complicated.

Instead of defaulting to surgery and putting them in a male/female gender box why can't society allow androgynous people be androgynous? The left is guilty of the same thing the right is accused of, encouraging the androgynous to be one or the other.

There have always been androgynous "females" and male "eunuchs". There should be no societal shame heaped upon those who were born androgynous. If as adults they want to choose surgery and live as a man or a woman they should have that choice, on their own dime.

What I'm opposed to is the attempted breakdown of gender roles for the vast majority in our culture. It is Orwellian in scope and is the very definition of confusion.  

androgen insensitivity = the exception that proves the rule




 
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2015, 08:53:05 AM »
Grown ass man,  he can do what he wants.

He's still a guy,  I'm not playing the pronoun semantics game anymore. 

This.  All of this.
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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2015, 09:44:15 AM »
It is completely understandable that parents would seek to keep their child from harming himself.  How many stories have we read of family going through several kinds of hell to keep one of their own from hurting themselves in one way or another?  This is a normal, reasonable response of moral and socialized humans toward blood relations demonstrating mental illness.

I am reminded of a George Carlin inspired meme:

* Cut yourself about the arms a bit and maybe draw blood, and it is a warning sign of serious problems.
* Mutilate beyond repair or natural function perfectly healthy generative organs, and it is a wonderful thing that only sex-obsessed blue noses would question.

"Self-Harm: It is awful unless you're really serious about it."

Insert sex into an issue and half the participants go stupid and insane.  Reason goes out the window, along with compassion and any wisdom gleaned from interaction with reality.
Regards,

roo_ster

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KD5NRH

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2015, 11:44:02 AM »
48 year old with a history of depression, substance abuse and minor learning disabilities is not someone who is incompetent.

Maybe not, but it is someone I'd strongly doubt has the tens of thousands of dollars of money they earned themselves laying around to pay for all this.

230RN

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2015, 12:27:28 PM »
This again?

I suppose it applies to tattoos and pierced ears (not gauges, but tasteful diamond or pearl studs for instance) as well?

It's not worth arguing/discussing.  You have your moral stand, I have mine, and the guy literally in the middle of it all has his (soon to possibly be hers).

stay safe.

Thank you.  It is about time that the moralists among us recognize that there are genetic mistakes --or overlaps in human characteristics, if you will.

Oh, and that they should mind their own damned business.

Terry
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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2015, 12:37:18 PM »
Thank you.  It is about time that the moralists among us recognize that there are genetic mistakes --or overlaps in human characteristics, if you will.


yeah, there are.  Hard cases, and few of them.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2015, 02:26:14 PM »
Thank you.  It is about time that the moralists among us recognize that there are genetic mistakes --or overlaps in human characteristics, if you will.

Oh, and that they should mind their own damned business.

Terry


Hey, um, Terry? You're the one moralizing here. You're telling us that what we ought to (not) say and do.

You're also making some particularly poor assumptions about who knows what.

Your horse. It is high.
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Firethorn

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2015, 04:22:43 PM »
Instead of defaulting to surgery and putting them in a male/female gender box why can't society allow androgynous people be androgynous? The left is guilty of the same thing the right is accused of, encouraging the androgynous to be one or the other.

That's actually pretty close to the current position.  It's just that you don't have to wait until they're an 'adult' to figure out whether they're going to want to be male or female.

Basically they can do some observational tests/observations, apply behavioral analysis and figure out whether out you're male or female 'in your head'. 

That being said, I think that they have a high probability of detecting those who will be trans, true trans, but the problem is that you'd need to test 'everybody' and said testing is expensive in time and that means money given that we're looking at hours of a rather specific sort of physician.  Right now it's mostly done by college professors as a 'side line' from what I've seen, and is only considered worth it in cases like we're talking about, where there's physical anomalies that throw which side of the fence they 'should' be on in doubt.

Getting them into their 'self-chosen' gender role/shape as early as practical helps on the suicide/health angle later in life.

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2015, 04:28:24 PM »
That's actually pretty close to the current position.  It's just that you don't have to wait until they're an 'adult' to figure out whether they're going to want to be male or female.

Basically they can do some observational tests/observations, apply behavioral analysis and figure out whether out you're male or female 'in your head'. 

That being said, I think that they have a high probability of detecting those who will be trans, true trans, but the problem is that you'd need to test 'everybody' and said testing is expensive in time and that means money given that we're looking at hours of a rather specific sort of physician.  Right now it's mostly done by college professors as a 'side line' from what I've seen, and is only considered worth it in cases like we're talking about, where there's physical anomalies that throw which side of the fence they 'should' be on in doubt.

Getting them into their 'self-chosen' gender role/shape as early as practical helps on the suicide/health angle later in life.

Your faith in pseudo-science is a bit unsettling.  These are the same sort of folk who think self harm is a problem to be addressed and ended if superficial, but super-peachy if severe and mutilating.

Giving these sort of morally and scientifically un-moored folk power or influence is a big mistake.
Regards,

roo_ster

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vaskidmark

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Re: Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2015, 06:06:52 PM »
Firethorn -

Presuming the driving force of "superficial" and "severe and mutilating" self harm are the same you might have a valid point.  However, it seems that "superficial" activity is related to the temporary amelioration of negative emotions while the "severe and mutilating" activity is more directed at achieving a permanent end.  That the latter has a less than certainty of achieving that goal is not relevant.

Those that cut or burn themselves do not expect the act to permanently solve whatever is causing them to feel distress.  Those seeking gender reassignment surgery have an expectation that it will provide a permanent cure. Is my understanding of this inaccurate?

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.