Don't like gender reassignment surgery? Get an injunction!

[roo_ster]

So glad we have you to be the arbiter of all that is moral and good.  What would my moral compass do without you?

The world wonders.

As long as I don't have to pay for it, either up front or for the mess made after, I don't care what someone does or has done with their dangly bits.

But I do have an opinion about the folks that want to get the remodeling work done and the medical practitioners that do such work and it isn't a very high one.

No no no. Rooster said it's immoral and you should care.

Otto JJ, would it be too much to ask for you to spend a moment understanding what you read?   I have not made an argument that self-harm is immoral (that is another topic), but that helping to facilitate the self-harm of mentally disturbed people is.  It does seem that RKL's opinion of those who do facilitate self-harm is similar to mine, thus your faux-hectoring of RKL is meaningless.

As for whether folk should care about mentally disturbed people harming themselves, your position does have its adherents in those that egg on suicidal folk on the brink of jumping off of buildings or bridges.

[MechAg94]

With all the Jenner hoopla going on I started to wonder if he had used steroids for training at any time in his life.

Maybe he baked his endocrine system and physiological changes took place in his brain due to excess estrogen.

Has that guy actually had any surgery?  I am still wondering if this is just a big media show to generate riches for Bruce.  He has been seeing those daughters get rich acting like fools. 

[Firethorn]

A sex change operation is not "merely" plastic surgery.  After a male or female has been so mutilated, they can no longer function as male or female.  This mutilation results in a loss of natural function.

And the gaining of other function.  Well, at least in MtF - FtM isn't as developed.

From what you said earlier: or enable the patient to function normally.

The patient WANTS to function as the other sex.

You call it 'mutilation', true.  Personally, I'd call it mutilation myself if I was so operated on.  But it's their choice.  Like the epileptic, they could just learn to live with the disconnect.

Your word games are less than impressive.

The problem is, I've moved beyond 'word games', posting things like studies.  You're the one who is depending on nothing but word games.

I'll go back to what I've said, supported by scientific study:  There are actually people out there who's brains make them want to be the opposite sex, most likely due to complicated things involving prenatal hormone levels at various points during the pregnancy.  Their mental view is different than their physical body. 

Now, this is a problem.  Choices I can think of are:
1.  Suck up the problem.  Hello suicide rates, unhappiness, etc...
2.  Change their body - physical surgery. 
3.  Change their mind - At this point mucking around with the firmware is a much less developed science than mucking with the hardware.

[BlueStarLizzard]

In response to the question of self mutilation, including that done with the aid of a professional.

Can someone please find some of those pictures of people who've had obsene amounts of plastic surgery or extream body modifications (tatoos, pericings, whatnot)?

Self mutilation is already a legal option for any adult who chooses to do so.

So, the whole argument over if it's bad or good is irrelevant. It's the same thing that's already being practiced.

(And before someone raves, did you know that breast augmentation surgery or reductions have permenant effects that include losing perfectly healthy nerve endings and can result in the loss of function of the breast? Yet, I don't see any of ya'll lining up outside the cosmetic surgeon office and decrying the woman who are "mutilating" their own breasts for the sake of what they look like)

[lupinus]

How many of those body mutilations specifically cater to mutilating themselves as a direct result of a mental disease?

[Firethorn]

How many of those body mutilations specifically cater to mutilating themselves as a direct result of a mental disease?

I've seen people who seriously argue that tattoos and body piercings are a sign of mental illness.   Yes, even minor tattoos.  They think people who get 'sleeves' and such are full up crazy.

[Balog]

Which is why I'm fully and wholly against trans surgeries for anyone on public assistance, in jail, or in the military.

You realize that's a moral jdgement no different than the one rooster is making correct? You aren't opposed to dictating or legislating morality, you just want to be the one doing it.

[BlueStarLizzard]

How many of those body mutilations specifically cater to mutilating themselves as a direct result of a mental disease?

Much of the plastic surgery industry is funded by the low self esteem of woman, many of whom suffer from things like depression and substance abuse.

[lupinus]

Much of the plastic surgery industry is funded by the low self esteem of woman, many of whom suffer from things like depression and substance abuse.

And much of it isn't, nor is the plastic surgery itself the direct manifestation of the particular mental disorder.


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

[Firethorn]

Here's a thought:

If they're happy with the surgery after it's completed, and they don't seek further alteration, hasn't it 'solved the problem'?  By 'completed' I mean that it's fine if it's a course of surgeries because they can't do it all in one go, but the whole series is more or less planned out before the first one is ever performed.  'More or less' is in there because it might be like building a custom house - you discover a boulder when you're excavating the foundation, so alterations have to be made there, that crenelated turret needs to be adjusted because it can't be built as planned, etc...  But once the home is completed you don't immediately start remodeling it.  The turret can't be circular, it needs to be square.  We need to relocate the kitchen from the back to the front of the house, etc...

Bluestar brings up a good point - consider women getting plastic surgery.  If they're getting it because of a mental disorder, and it's not solving the problem, they're going to keep going back.

Consider Michael Jackson and his nose.  The women who get so many breast implants of increasing size that their boobs are more silicone than breast. 

[BlueStarLizzard]

And much of it isn't, nor is the plastic surgery itself the direct manifestation of the particular mental disorder.


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

Dude, most of the transgender transformation *is* plastic surgery.

[lupinus]

Dude, most of the transgender transformation *is* plastic surgery.

Really? I thought they waved a wand and a dick sprouted.

It's a surgery that specifically caters to disfigure someone with a mental disorder.


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

[230RN]

Now wait a minute...

In poking around trying to find out more about this phenomenon, I came across this name:

Aleshia Brevard

...who appeared in the movie "The Love God?", a Don Knotts vehicle:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064606/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

Long story short, it turns out she's a transgendered actress, so I poked around some more and found this image.

http://www.aleshiabrevard.com/popups/Lg_Fins_Daddy01.htm

Now you guys are gonna sit there and tell me that this transgendered, queer, whacko, mentally ill person should not  have had gender reassignment surgery?  You think this is a unique case?  You think he/she chose the way she was born?  You think that he/she didn't go through hell in High School gym locker rooms?*    You think that her malformed male body was merely a "cross he has to bear as a test of his faith" or some other religious dictum?

Sorry, but in my tentative digging around, my tentative decision is that a lot or most of this stuff isn't mere "cosmetic surgery," or the fulfillment of a sick fantasy, or just plain craziness, but perhaps, just perhaps, "bringing to perfection God's work," and also perhaps, strong evidence that there is no binary categorization of "boys" and "girls" as so many seem to think. 

Or believe. 

Or parrot.

Terry

*I'm supposing that, not a fact in evidence.

[lupinus]

I don't think anyone is arguing against a legitimate case of fixing a malformation already present to take a lil of both condition to a one or the other condition.


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

[Jamisjockey]

You realize that's a moral jdgement no different than the one rooster is making correct? You aren't opposed to dictating or legislating morality, you just want to be the one doing it.

I just don't want to be the one paying for it.  That's all I ask.  I don't want to pay for anyone else's anything.  Not cancer treatments, not trans surgery, not a boob job, not anything.

[zxcvbob]

Now wait a minute...

In poking around trying to find out more about this phenomenon, I came across this name:

Aleshia Brevard

...who appeared in the movie "The Love God?", a Don Knotts vehicle:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064606/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

A Don Knotts movie I never heard of!     I'm still looking for a copy of this one:

[Balog]

I just don't want to be the one paying for it.  That's all I ask.  I don't want to pay for anyone else's anything.  Not cancer treatments, not trans surgery, not a boob job, not anything.

Which is a moral judgement no different than the one roo proposed.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Which is a moral judgement no different than the one roo proposed.

Sounds more like a financially based judgement to me.

[Fitz]

Which is a moral judgement no different than the one roo proposed.

Not wanting to pay for something that isn't for you is a moral judgment?

[Firethorn]

Not wanting to pay for something that isn't for you is a moral judgment?

In a sense.  Consider it a moral call between the individual and society.

Some people who are more of the 'society' viewpoint* views healthcare as an uneven critical need, thus something to be covered by 'insurance'.  Because it can exist from birth(and before), and a few other things, not even commercial insurance companies can effectively support it, so you get national health care.

His statement makes him out to be an individualist, but also makes him look either mean-spirited (I keep what I have!) or hypocritical if he's gotten assistance from the government, but wants to deny said assistance to others.  For example, Ayn Rand ended up on social security before she died.

*And nobody sane is completely one or the other

[Balog]

Not wanting to pay for something that isn't for you is a moral judgment?

Yes. Moral obligations and judgments can carry financial obligations.

Just like child support. Some people make the moral judgement that if you are the biological father of a child you have a moral duty to support it, and that moral judgement has been codified into law. Other people argue that this is an incorrect moral judgement and wish to see it removed. Either way, it's a moral issue that revolves around financial questions.

My only point is this. All law is codified morality. To come on here and make explicit moral arguments, and then slam others for making moral arguments, is absurd and hypocritical. People get this weird idea that "morality" is just about sex, and all of the other things in their life they hold opinions on as "right" or "wrong" are somehow not.

[BlueStarLizzard]

....

Is these people for real?

Money does not grow on trees, Balog. Making financially based decisions is not the same as making a moral decision.

Child support? Let me ask you something? Do you think the IRS is taking in enough money to financially assist all those single parents? Or do you think it might be more financially viable to have the other parent chip in for their induvidial spawn?

Medical bills? Flipping sky high. I waver back and forth on public funding for emergency services. For the most part I lean towards it, since I think it's probably on the safer side to save lives first and than inquire into the bill, but if the person isn't actually facing imminent death for a medical procedure? Can we, as a country, afford this? Nope. We can't. Especially if they add cosmetic surgery as something stupid Obamacare pays for (and it's not the trannys that's going to make us go broke on that, it's the masses of woman who want to look like they sat in front of a high powered fan until their faces got stuck)

That's not a moral judgement. That's a finical one.

Again, money don't grow on trees. The country cannot afford this crap. This country is already IN DEBT.

[Firethorn]

Is these people for real?

Money does not grow on trees, Balog. Making financially based decisions is not the same as making a moral decision.

Yes, 'these people for real' do exist, though I'm not reading Balog as one of them.

There are areas of California that are running debtor's prisons for 'deadbeat dads' where they imprison men for not making child support payments despite them being un or under-employed, with the argument that 'if they just tried hard enough' that they would be able to earn enough money to satisfy their payments.  Often child support still accumulates while they're in jail, even as the state takes away any licenses they might have - including their driver's license, which they aren't guaranteed to get back unless they manage to get caught up.  Part of the problem?  How do you expect, for example, a plumber to get caught up on child support if he can't work as a plumber, nor legally drive the truck to get to people's homes to do plumbing work?

Medical bills? Flipping sky high. I waver back and forth on public funding for emergency services.

I agree.  Part of the problem is that once you agree to public funding of emergency rooms, it emerges that it's now cheaper to publicly fund other healthcare in order to keep as many people out of the emergency room in the first place as possible.  An ounce of preventing being worth a pound of cure...

There's a lot of 'penny wise pound foolish' spending out there.  For example, it's been calculated that a single homeless man costs the governments involved approximately a quarter million dollars a year.  You can knock that expense down to under  $40k/year by providing basic food & shelter, without rules that force often mentally ill and drug addicted people to stay on the street.  Surprisingly, once you get them INTO shelter, they're a lot more likely to clean up, than requiring them to clean up before you provide them shelter.

[Balog]

....

Is these people for real?

I really don't know what to do with that comment. And the rest is just "angry old man yells at clouds" level ranting that has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was making.

I'll take it slow since you seem to be having trouble with the argument as a whole.

Do you understand the concept that moral decisions can be made about financial subjects? Or, to put it another way, that morality and money are not separate things but can be intertwined? Saying "Decision X is about money!" does not mean that Decision X is not a moral one.

[Firethorn]

Do you understand the concept that moral decisions can be made about financial subjects? Or, to put it another way, that morality and money are not separate things but can be intertwined? Saying "Decision X is about money!" does not mean that Decision X is not a moral one.

For that matter, 'We have a limited amount of money, here's how we think it's best to spend it' is another moral choice.  Do we save the whales, or the cheetahs?  Do we concentrate on the kids of single moms, or those with Down's?  How much to the highway fund to fix 'deficient' bridges?  Etc...