Author Topic: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented  (Read 2778 times)

roo_ster

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If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« on: November 03, 2015, 03:15:05 PM »
In more than one way, politics being first and foremost, as the one-dimensional evil cabal of evil bad guys doing evil things opposed by all who are good and right and on the right side of history.

But, the arena that most relies on Nazi proxies is that of entertainment.  Books, movies, teevee, all of them.  Need a bad guy group?  Plug in Nazis. The general abandonment of morality by the creative classes has left them no way to write about evil with any (shall I use the word?) nuance or sophistication.  The last time the progressive forces of unreason could without reservation point at foreigners and screech "EVIL" was when the Nazis turned on Russian Communism. (Oh, and also placed France, GB, and the rest of the West in peril...but it was the danger to Russian Reds and the progressive utopia that really got their motor turning.)

I can not seem to escape Nazis, not even in escapist fiction.  In the last couple months I have encountered the following thinly-veiled Nazis in books and cinema:
Space Nazis
17th Century Nazis
Ancient Nazis
Super Nazi Nazis

Getting tired of Nazi proxies.  Should be a bounty on Nazi proxies: Find Nazi proxies in books/film, get a $1000 for being the first to tar and feather the author responsible.

Regards,

roo_ster

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brimic

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2015, 04:12:29 PM »
If it weren't for Nazis and the millions they murdered, we'd have to have to make the communists the posterboys for genocide with them having murdered an order of magnitude more people- that can't be allowed.
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cordex

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2015, 04:20:52 PM »
So the Nazis got the knickers of some folks you disagree with in a knot, therefore people shouldn't use them or anything Nazi-like in fiction?

Someone looking for similarities could see Nazism in a variety of not truly Nazi-specific things.  Genocide, racial superiority, a charismatic but evil supreme leader, reverence for said leader, youth indoctrination, etc.  They are the certainly the exemplar of a state whose evil is expressed on an industrial scale and everyone on both sides of the aisle can feel good about killing Nazis, but I'm not sure that means that no one should have a bad guy with a spiffy uniform.

makattak

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2015, 04:24:26 PM »
So the Nazis got the knickers of some folks you disagree with in a knot, therefore people shouldn't use them or anything Nazi-like in fiction?

Someone looking for similarities could see Nazism in a variety of not truly Nazi-specific things.  Genocide, racial superiority, a charismatic but evil supreme leader, reverence for said leader, youth indoctrination, etc.  They are the certainly the exemplar of a state whose evil is expressed on an industrial scale and everyone on both sides of the aisle can feel good about killing Nazis, but I'm not sure that means that no one should have a bad guy with a spiffy uniform.

No, he's complaining about the over-use of Nazis as the bad guys.

It's a result of the moral relativism of the age. The Nazis are just about the only enemy the relativists are comfortable calling "evil." (I use quotes for evil because the relativists shouldn't believe in evil, given their position.)

Every other enemy is just misunderstood. I had a very interesting sci-fi book I was enjoying until he made an entire invasion of earth and murder of billions a result of a misunderstanding. I put the book down (ok, clicked out of it) and have not returned.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

roo_ster

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2015, 04:46:53 PM »
So the Nazis got the knickers of some folks you disagree with in a knot, therefore people shouldn't use them or anything Nazi-like in fiction?

Not so much straw, thanks.

No, he's complaining about the over-use of Nazis as the bad guys.

It's a result of the moral relativism of the age. The Nazis are just about the only enemy the relativists are comfortable calling "evil."
(I use quotes for evil because the relativists shouldn't believe in evil, given their position.)

Every other enemy is just misunderstood. I had a very interesting sci-fi book I was enjoying until he made an entire invasion of earth and murder of billions a result of a misunderstanding. I put the book down (ok, clicked out of it) and have not returned.

Ayup. 

Overused Crutch
A non-ideological overused crutch in entertainment is "the (seeming?/mysterious) antagonist in a motorcycle helmet/ninjasassin outfit who nearly bests our protagonist" who turns out to be <knuckle-bite-gasp> a woman!  Shee-it, never saw THAT one coming!  Except for the fact that every danged action teevee show has it occur at least once per season. 

No Moral Language
The embrace of moral relativism has disarmed our creative class of even the vocabulary to describe evil and human foible.  All they can do is point, grunt, and then squeal, "Nazi!" 

"Hey, Bob, the book this film is based on had muslim terrorists as the baddies and obviously we can't run with that."  "Just make them Nazis and call it a day."  "Bob, you're a flipping GENIUS."
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roo_ster

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cordex

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2015, 05:33:12 PM »
Oh, so this is just a thread about overused tropes?

Perd Hapley

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2015, 05:57:50 PM »
Oh brother. Another thread about the over-utilization of Nazis. Too many Nazis here. Too many Nazis there.

You bunch of Nazi Nazis.  ;/  :P
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Hawkmoon

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2015, 06:33:04 PM »
It's a result of the moral relativism of the age. The Nazis are just about the only enemy the relativists are comfortable calling "evil." (I use quotes for evil because the relativists shouldn't believe in evil, given their position.)

It has nothing to do with moral relativism. It's just that the swastika armbands are so readily identifiable, Nazis are much more obvious evildoers than, say, Communists. Aside from which German sounds a little bit like English, and it uses (mostly) the same alphabet.

In other words -- it's laziness.
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Jocassee

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2015, 09:12:47 PM »
Godwinned the hell out of this thread...right in the first post.
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roo_ster

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2015, 09:30:01 PM »
Oh, so this is just a thread about overused tropes?

Mostly, but the Nazi trope in particular.  Can't seem to escape it lately in books and movies of several genres. 

To include speculation as to why Nazis and not...
Jacobins
Communists of various flavor (Maoists, Leninists, Stalinists, Khmer Rouge, Castro/Che, etc.)
Wilsonians
Spanish Republicans or Nationalists
Kemalists / Young Turks / Donme
Ottoman Turks
Italian Fascists
Muenster Anabaptists
South Africa's ANC
Meiji Japan
Peronists
Etc. etc.

There are lots of nasty groups in history, some being awfully interesting.

Or (crazy idea) some baddies not a carbon copy of an historical group? 



Godwinned the hell out of this thread...right in the first post.

No, a post discussing Nazis is un-Godwinnable in the conventional sense.  The only way to "anti-Godwin" this is to compare Nazis to hippies...while being completely serious about it.

 
Regards,

roo_ster

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charby

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2015, 09:53:55 PM »
Growing up in the 70s and 80s it was commie this and commie that, seems like wasn't until the mid 1990s that the term Nazi became popular.
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bedlamite

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2015, 10:08:40 PM »
Not many threads are Godwined in the OP title.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2015, 10:15:36 PM »
Not many threads are Godwined in the OP title.

This is APS. If such can be done, it shall be done here first.
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brimic

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2015, 08:44:36 AM »
Eff the godwin meme. It was created to shut down speech which correctly points out that nazi politics is very similar to politics of the left.  :old:
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cordex

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2015, 10:11:46 AM »
To include speculation as to why Nazis and not...
I think Hawkmoon was taking it in the right direction.  Nazis are a modern, western, well documented evil whose crimes were enormous in scale, accomplished with industrial efficiency, widespread approval and meticulously recorded by the perpetrators.  They are enough like us to elicit the horror of feeling associated with evil yet they tend to segregate themselves with pride.  That self-inflicted separation makes them easier to vilify and compartmentalize.  In their time they were a very real existential threat and were not easily defeated.  Most viewers in the US grew up hearing stories from elders who personally fought against Nazis or at least spent their formative years consuming post-war fiction and histories that prominently featured the Nazi menace.

Further, and sort of playing on your point, Nazis (like Zombies) are safe enemy.  There are no significant or accepted groups within modern culture who are offended by killing Nazis and folks all over the political map will unite in their hatred of Nazis.

So yeah, leftists in entertainment who hated that they smacked the Russians around probably contribute a little to the use of Nazis as bad guys.  Probably quite a bit less so than the impact of Jewish writers or the simple fact that Nazis are - as Hawkmoon said - an easy, lazy, socially tuned shortcut for an enemy that you do not wish to have the audience feel sympathy for. 

There are lots of nasty groups in history, some being awfully interesting.
No argument, but most are harder for an American audience to relate to.  Americans either didn't fight them, fought them only indirectly, beat them handily, were unable to sufficiently publicize their crimes or simply don't feel the same connection to their atrocities because so much time has passed.

Or (crazy idea) some baddies not a carbon copy of an historical group? 
That is particularly hard, but certainly a good goal for writers out there.

Blakenzy

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 11:46:47 AM »
Now we have terrists as the ultimate dehumanizing badge of evil. I would say that although with less symbolism attached the "terrorist" is the ultimate generic bad guy representation, so much so that we have allowed our own country to devolve out of the Rule of Law in order to "get the terrorists"  ;/

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makattak

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 01:55:44 PM »
Now we have terrists as the ultimate dehumanizing badge of evil. I would say that although with less symbolism attached the "terrorist" is the ultimate generic bad guy representation, so much so that we have allowed our own country to devolve out of the Rule of Law in order to "get the terrorists"  ;/


But that's a tactic, not a motivation.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

zxcvbob

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 02:16:44 PM »
"It's good, though..."

TommyGunn

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 02:37:22 PM »
Now come on!!!    Nazis did not have pointy ears!   That's fake!

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makattak

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I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2015, 10:14:35 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Zp3BXwDB8

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Scout26

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2015, 11:28:58 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Zp3BXwDB8

Bewares of bad language - and swastikas!

Given that "Grandpa" was only the SS equivalent of a 2LT (rank on blouse), I really doubt he was "inner circle", plus "Grandpa" seemed to have earned the US Army's Good Conduct medal, Army Commendation medal,  and Vietnam Service medal.  (There's one more and that might be a German Iron cross of some (low, probably 2nd class) flavor.

I can't tell what the badge is on his pocket (looks like they blacked over it.  Nor the clasp above the left pocket.


BTW:

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roo_ster

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2015, 12:49:25 PM »
A review of the James Bond film SPECTRE gets at it.  [Heck, the whole inability of the James Bond film franchise to name communism the enemy (and replacing the USSR with SPECTRE where Fleming explicitly had communists as antagonists).]

Why ‘Spectre’ Gets a ‘B’
http://pjmedia.com/andrewklavan/2015/11/09/why-spectre-gets-a-b/?singlepage=true

Quote
But more than that, as with last summer’s Mission: Impossible — Rogue Nation (a much better movie) — and with the last three Star Wars flicks (much worse), Spectre suffers as a result of the deterioration of American values since the original source material was made.

Quote
The Bond of Dr. No, like the Ethan Hunt of the original MI TV series, like the Luke Skywalker of the first Star Wars trilogy, knew what he was fighting for and what he was fighting against.

Quote
They aren’t honest so they can’t write honest plots. Their villains have no motives and their master plans are confusing where they’re not just laughable. Their heroes are merely an assemblage of characteristics from an earlier age: empty images that move and talk a certain way but have no virtue and so no power to thrill. They are, so to speak, merely spectres of their former selves.

Without intellectual honesty, you can’t find moral truth. Without moral truth, there are no good stories.


That can't be true.  If it were, The Catcher in the Rye would be a shallow and indulgent whine by a teenaged boy who needs a good beating with the reality stick to help him grow up.



Best comment to linked article:
"If Craig is sick of Bond then he's ready for the sequel to Zardoz."
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roo_ster

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agricola

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Re: If The Nazis Had Never Existed, They'd Have To Be Invented
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2015, 06:52:14 PM »
No, he's complaining about the over-use of Nazis as the bad guys.

It's a result of the moral relativism of the age. The Nazis are just about the only enemy the relativists are comfortable calling "evil." (I use quotes for evil because the relativists shouldn't believe in evil, given their position.)

Every other enemy is just misunderstood. I had a very interesting sci-fi book I was enjoying until he made an entire invasion of earth and murder of billions a result of a misunderstanding. I put the book down (ok, clicked out of it) and have not returned.

That may be partly true - but it is perhaps also the case that a movement that was as richly stylized as much as the Nazi era was will always present an attractive option to lazy writers; certainly more than the comparatively much more drab Soviets, or the even drabber Chinese.  Perhaps though the fashion sense of IS will lead to an increased presence in future episodes of Star Trek

Though it should also be said that, in your country at least, we British* are still vastly over-represented when it comes to the bad guys. 


* minus the Scots of course, and the Irish
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