Three dead, nine wounded in Co. Springs Planned Parenthood clinic shooting

[Ron]

One crazy a-hole can be a terrorist if he believes that his actions of violence will bring attention to his cause.

I remember some of the bombing and fire bombings of abortion clinics in the 1980's and 1990's where more of them were lead by one person.

Holy Cow! You are so off the rails into moral equivalency and relativism that I may have lost all respect for you.

If the conservative Protestants and Catholics wanted to make a statement and call out the dogs of war against the abortionists believe me you wouldn't be holding up crazy homeless guys and random lunatics from two decades ago as "Christian soldiers".

If Christians wanted to use violence against the abortion industry believe me, the bloodshed wouldn't only be limited to the innocent unborn little babies ripped to shreds, skulls crushed or whatever other evil method the more progressive amongst us have thought up as it currently stands.

Us Christians have always had the power to cause death destruction and mayhem to the  "progressive" death cult industry of abortion if we were so inclined. The means and motivation are certainly there yet we are restrained by our theology based upon the very words of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

You actually compare the peaceful Christian pro life movement with the death cult born of Islam?

I'll let you use your imagination with what you can do with your relativism and moral equivalence on the subject.

[RoadKingLarry]

C'mon Ron, don't hold back, tell us how.you really feel.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you....

[charby]

Holy Cow! You are so off the rails into moral equivalency and relativism that I may have lost all respect for you.

If the conservative Protestants and Catholics wanted to make a statement and call out the dogs of war against the abortionists believe me you wouldn't be holding up crazy homeless guys and random lunatics from two decades ago as "Christian soldiers".

If Christians wanted to use violence against the abortion industry believe me, the bloodshed wouldn't only be limited to the innocent unborn little babies ripped to shreds, skulls crushed or whatever other evil method the more progressive amongst us have thought up as it currently stands.

Us Christians have always had the power to cause death destruction and mayhem to the  "progressive" death cult industry of abortion if we were so inclined. The means and motivation are certainly there yet we are restrained by our theology based upon the very words of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

You actually compare the peaceful Christian pro life movement with the death cult born of Islam?

I'll let you use your imagination with what you can do with your relativism and moral equivalence on the subject.

I didn't mention the pro life movement, I said people have done violence in the name of Christianity. Doesn't matter of they are crazy in regards to societal norms or not, perhaps the ones who perverse the Islam religion are just as equally crazy as the ones who perverse Christianity. In the western world we have education on our side, that helped shape the Christian religion from being violent to what it is now. Islam fanatics seem to prey upon the uneducated to do their bidding.

After the Constantinian shift, Christianity became entangled with government. While anthropologists have shown that throughout history the relationship between religion and politics has been complex, there is no doubt that religious institutions, including Christian ones, have been used coercively by governments, and have themselves used coercion. Examples include: during the Christian persecution of paganism under Theodosius I, forced conversion and violent assimilation of pagan tribes in medieval Europe, the Inquisition, including its manifestations in Goa, Mexico, Portugal, and Spain, forced conversion of indigenous children in North American and Australia, and, since 1992, against Hindus in Northeast India.

[Scout26]

Doesn't matter of they are crazy in regards to societal norms or not, perhaps the ones who perverse the Islam religion are just as equally crazy as the ones who perverse Christianity.

Bolding Mine.

If you read the Quran, it starts out peaceful, but then later counterdicts those peaceful dictates/ideas with more aggressive warlike dictates/ideas.  Mirroring Mohammed's life as he went from idealistic to conquering warlord.  It enables Muslims to point at the "peaceful" parts of the Quran as "a religion of peace" all the while preparing for the time when they go from "put-upon minority" to "ruling majority" and enact sharia law. 

Sorry, but it's a religion/cult of war and conquest not peaceful servitude.

[Perd Hapley]

Islam fanatics seem to prey upon the uneducated to do their bidding.

No, they don't. Lack of education is not an indicator of whether or not someone may become radicalized.

In the western world we have education on our side, that helped shape the Christian religion from being violent to what it is now.

Just for clarification, the teachings of Christ/the Bible didn't need "shaping" to be non-violent. It was the early modern Christians who needed to be reformed away from the popular (un-Biblical) belief that the state should enforce religion.

[Ron]

I didn't mention the pro life movement, I said people have done violence in the name of Christianity. Doesn't matter of they are crazy in regards to societal norms or not, perhaps the ones who perverse the Islam religion are just as equally crazy as the ones who perverse Christianity. In the western world we have education on our side, that helped shape the Christian religion from being violent to what it is now. Islam fanatics seem to prey upon the uneducated to do their bidding.

If you cared about Muslim American citizens you would be against importing more 2nd and 3rd world Muslims.

Why would we want to import folks from Muslim majority countries where the norm is little to no religious freedom, the subjugation of women, the death penalty for being homosexual, hatred for unbelievers, especially the Jews and in some cases pedophilia?

I'm not sure it is accurate to call those who practice Islam as it has been practiced historically, "perverse". I think they would contend that those who compromise with the Christians and Jews, those who adopt the norms of western civilization are the ones perverting Islam.

Let us see if our Muslim citizens can square the circle of modernity and Islam and bring about some form of reformation they can export.

There has not been a single example of a western nation becoming stronger due to high immigration levels of Muslims. In fact the opposite can easily be demonstrated just by watching the chaos unfolding in Europe.  

[MechAg94]

I didn't mention the pro life movement, I said people have done violence in the name of Christianity. Doesn't matter of they are crazy in regards to societal norms or not, perhaps the ones who perverse the Islam religion are just as equally crazy as the ones who perverse Christianity. In the western world we have education on our side, that helped shape the Christian religion from being violent to what it is now. Islam fanatics seem to prey upon the uneducated to do their bidding.

No, Christianity was born as a peaceful movement.  That was the example set by Jesus in the beginning.  He was not a conquering Warlord.  Everyone brings up the Crusades among other things, but that was 1000 years later and it was in response to the real attacks of Muslim Warlords attacking the Byzantines as well as others.  It was only in the 700's that Muslims invaded France and were stopped by Martel.  They weren't kicked out of Spain until the 1400's.  I think sitting back and blaming stuff like the Crusades solely on Christians is ignorance of history.  Even spanish inquisition started up soon after Christian rulers finally kicked the Muslims out of Spain in the late 1400's.  Would that have happened had Muslim Warlords never invaded in the first place?  I am not trying to deflect blame on that getting way out of control, but it is still partly tied in with warlord traditions that Islam started with. 

[Andiron]

and in some cases pedophilia?

Like,  oh I dunno,  Mohamed himself?   

[Perd Hapley]

No, Christianity was born as a peaceful movement.  That was the example set by Jesus in the beginning.  He was not a conquering Warlord.  Everyone brings up the Crusades among other things, but that was 1000 years later and it was in response to the real attacks of Muslim Warlords attacking the Byzantines as well as others.  It was only in the 700's that Muslims invaded France and were stopped by Martel.  They weren't kicked out of Spain until the 1400's.  I think sitting back and blaming stuff like the Crusades solely on Christians is ignorance of history.  Even spanish inquisition started up soon after Christian rulers finally kicked the Muslims out of Spain in the late 1400's.  Would that have happened had Muslim Warlords never invaded in the first place?  I am not trying to deflect blame on that getting way out of control, but it is still partly tied in with warlord traditions that Islam started with. 

Aside from the Crusades and Inquisition, though, people believed that government should oversee the church, and regulate tithing and church attendance, church offices, etc. The Reformation didn't stop it, either. I don't think it was until late into the Enlightenment era that Westerners began to step back from this way of thinking.

My point isn't that religious violence is endemic to Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm just saying that Christianity [sic] by force was more widespread than the Crusades [also sic] and Inquisition.

[MillCreek]

http://www.thestranger.com/features/feature/2015/12/09/23243178/when-a-mass-killer-is-a-white-christian-hes-a-lone-lunatic-but-when-hes-muslim-he-represents-all-muslims

You can see some of these arguments articulated in this very thread.

[Angel Eyes]

http://www.thestranger.com/features/feature/2015/12/09/23243178/when-a-mass-killer-is-a-white-christian-hes-a-lone-lunatic-but-when-hes-muslim-he-represents-all-muslims

You can see some of these arguments articulated in this very thread.

... and the article is bovine excrement, for reasons already stated in this thread.

[RevDisk]

http://www.thestranger.com/features/feature/2015/12/09/23243178/when-a-mass-killer-is-a-white-christian-hes-a-lone-lunatic-but-when-hes-muslim-he-represents-all-muslims

You can see some of these arguments articulated in this very thread.

From what I understand, quite a few folks do indeed try to shut down abortion clinics via terror. It ranges from the small stuff like attempting to intimidate staff, acid attacks, minor arson, etc to the big stuff like kidnapping, murder, major arson, assassinations, etc. Which is the definition of terrorism before we started monkeying with it. "Trying to change other people's actions or beliefs, by using terror".

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States

I do laugh at the cognitive processes of certain folks.
"All gun owners are evil terroristers that kick puppies, but don't judge all Muslims by the actions of the few." vs "Individual crazy people that use guns shouldn't get all gun owners blamed, but we should ban, register or deport all Muslims."

Both are using the exact same argument of the other side for the same reason, and generally don't see the irony. Usually because they are too busy launching into stats and canned talking points that completely miss the point. That said, there is plenty of rational positions that don't believe all Muslims or gun owners are squeaky clean, and that some reasonable steps should be taken. For example, I wouldn't mind if private sales had some mechanism available to the public to ensure the other person wasn't a felon or prohibited person. Like a number I could call or cheap scanner I could use to run a drivers license or SSN through to give a simple pass/fail. Tis why at the moment, I absolutely do not do private sales to anyone I don't know exceptionally well.

[makattak]

http://www.thestranger.com/features/feature/2015/12/09/23243178/when-a-mass-killer-is-a-white-christian-hes-a-lone-lunatic-but-when-hes-muslim-he-represents-all-muslims

You can see some of these arguments articulated in this very thread.

You're right, CLEARLY it's just anti-nonwhites bias. It's not things like:

“He said he worked with the government, and everybody was out to get him, and he knew the secrets of the U.S.A. He said, ‘Nobody touch me, because I’ve got enough information to put the whole U.S. of A in danger.’ It was very crazy.”
...
“We’re not isolationists,” one resident said. “You know how whenever someone goes crazy, the neighbors say he was so quiet and normal. That wasn’t the case here. He was weird. Everyone kept an eye on him.”
...
“He was just always saying, ‘I know the U.S. is trying to kill everybody’ and do this and do that,” said one resident here. “He [said he] was an undercover [agent]. Just craziness. Just pure, right-out craziness all the time. I’m kind of glad he’s put away now,” he said.


Find me any statements like that about the terrorists in San Bernadino, instead of:

“I haven’t heard anything,” the elder Syed Farook told The News before his son’s name became public. “He was very religious. He would go to work, come back, go to pray, come back. He’s Muslim.”

I think the Virginia Tech shooter was crazy too. Oh, that's right, asians don't count as minorities, so I guess that's just another "white shooter" who was crazy.

[MechAg94]

There is a fairly well documented history of at least certain Muslims committing violence and sponsoring violence against Western countries.  From what we have heard of these two in California, they were in contact radicals overseas and received funding from someone.  While that does not indict "ALL" Muslims, it does mean they were part of an organized group.  In the eyes of most Americans, we don't have many of those people around us so we tend to lump them together.  I am sure Muslims overseas NEVER lump all Americans together or say they oppose our Govt, but not us. 

The Virginia Tech shooter was Korean.  Since there was no history of Koreans sponsoring or committing terrorist acts or mass shootings, why would you expect anyone to start talking about ALL Koreans as potential threats? 

[MechAg94]

Aside from the Crusades and Inquisition, though, people believed that government should oversee the church, and regulate tithing and church attendance, church offices, etc. The Reformation didn't stop it, either. I don't think it was until late into the Enlightenment era that Westerners began to step back from this way of thinking.

My point isn't that religious violence is endemic to Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm just saying that Christianity [sic] by force was more widespread than the Crusades [also sic] and Inquisition.

I think I know what you are getting to, but how much of that was based more in Colonialism?  Moral Equivilency hadn't been invented yet.

[MillCreek]

Of course, it would not be fair to judge all gun-owning conservative white Christian males or gun-owning violent video-game playing males for the actions of the crazy ones in those groups.

[makattak]

Of course, it would not be fair to judge all gun-owning conservative white Christian males or gun-owning violent video-game playing males for the actions of the crazy ones in those groups.

No, it's not.

You have yet to provide any evidence that the San Bernadino terrorists were crazy, so I'm not seeing your point.

[Fitz]

Islamic extremism isn't a perversion of islam. Peaceful islam is a perversion of islam. The example for muslims to follow was a bloodthirsty, murderous pedophile, and no amount of apologetics can change that, or the fact that Muslims are supposed to hold him up as an example to follow.

Period. Any other conclusion is, quite simply, a weak attempt at SJW-tier rationalization.

Contrast that to Christianity. While yes, there have  evils committed in the name of Christ, it's a pretty undeniable fact that Christ's attributes are a worthy example to follow, and the central idea of love and forgiveness is a sharp contrast to the barbarism of Muhammed and his conquests.

[brimic]

Islamic extremism isn't a perversion of islam. Peaceful islam is a perversion of islam. The example for muslims to follow was a bloodthirsty, murderous pedophile, and no amount of apologetics can change that, or the fact that Muslims are supposed to hold him up as an example to follow.

Period. Any other conclusion is, quite simply, a weak attempt at SJW-tier rationalization.

Contrast that to Christianity. While yes, there have  evils committed in the name of Christ, it's a pretty undeniable fact that Christ's attributes are a worthy example to follow, and the central idea of love and forgiveness is a sharp contrast to the barbarism of Muhammed and his conquests.

Where's the 'Like' button?

[roo_ster]

http://www.thestranger.com/features/feature/2015/12/09/23243178/when-a-mass-killer-is-a-white-christian-hes-a-lone-lunatic-but-when-hes-muslim-he-represents-all-muslims

You can see some of these arguments articulated in this very thread.

From the other thread on Muslim fanaticism:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=50280.msg1025008#new

Which it is obvious some never read.

One bit of data:


Let us look at proportions:
36%   Death Penalty for Apostasy
46%   Death Penalty for Adultery
68%   Sharia
86%   Wife's subordination

When roughly 36% of Christians think that there should be a gov't-imposed death penalty for apostasy and nearly half for adultery, you might have an argument regarding moral equivalence.

[MillCreek]

But on the plus side in the eyes of many, ISIS executes gay men by throwing them off buildings.  

And let us not forget the Christians who are working towards the same end: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaoma-uganda-gays-american-ministers-20140323-story.html

[roo_ster]

But on the plus side in the eyes of many, ISIS executes gay men by throwing them off buildings.  

Love Gravity Wins.  Maybe Dan Savage could tell them it gets better.

Did you read that after they throw them from a ten-story building to their deaths, they actually throw stones at the corpses  for a while?  It seems the last bit of grotesque absurdity on top of an already evil act.  They must hate homosexuals like pro-choicers hate babies.

And let us not forget the Christians who are working towards the same end: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaoma-uganda-gays-american-ministers-20140323-story.html

Get your links messed up?  I did not read about any vigilante roof-tossing of homosexuals.  I did read about a Russian law aimed at reducing pedophilia, which no reasonable man could object to.

[Andiron]

Get your links messed up?  I did not read about any vigilante roof-tossing of homosexuals.  I did read about a Russian law aimed at reducing pedophilia, which no reasonable man could object to.

That's all I read.

[Fitz]

Love Gravity Wins.  Maybe Dan Savage could tell them it gets better.

Did you read that after they throw them from a ten-story building to their deaths, they actually throw stones at the corpses  for a while?  It seems the last bit of grotesque absurdity on top of an already evil act.  They must hate homosexuals like pro-choicers hate babies.


Get your links messed up?  I did not read about any vigilante roof-tossing of homosexuals.  I did read about a Russian law aimed at reducing pedophilia, which no reasonable man could object to.

It had stuff about the Ugandans too, who at one point were sentencing them to death.

But then again, it IS Uganda. I think they're constantly looking for excuses to massacre each other. that's another discussion entirely.

[Ron]

Of course, it would not be fair to judge all gun-owning conservative white Christian males or gun-owning violent video-game playing males for the actions of the crazy ones in those groups.

So how many folks from Muslim majority nations would you like to see allowed to immigrate to the USA?

10,000? 20,000 per year? How about 100,000 or 200,000 per year?

Why not just open the border to all that want to come?

What is the acceptable level in your mind?

Assuming you want some numerical limitation what is your rational behind the limit?