Author Topic: Shooting sports  (Read 2121 times)

cosine

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Shooting sports
« on: November 17, 2006, 11:46:48 AM »
Could someone give me a basic primer of common shooting sports such as IDPA, ISPC, Highpower, etc?

Andy

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 11:57:26 AM »
Shoot fast and accurately to win.
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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 12:56:35 PM »
IDPA gives a nod of the head and some respect to proper tactics, it is a still a game.

IPSC is pure speed and accuracy with little regard to tactics.

I prefer to shoot with my group which is run by a tactical pistol instructor. Not as fast and flashy but has real world applications.

The gun games are a lot of fun and if that is what you want to do I encourage you to pursue it, you will not regret it.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 02:51:16 PM »
Since we're on the topic....
I'm beginning to rathole my spending money with the intent of purchasing a "service pistol".  One of the reasons is I'd like to shoot IDPA.  So, my question is, is .45acp okay for IDPA?  Other than ammo cost, which had me thinking about the 9mm instead.
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SpookyPistolero

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 03:19:14 PM »
Howdy-

I've only ever shot IDPA, but it's a lot of fun. It seems like a good sport to choose as a stepping stone, if nothing else. I get a little agitated sometimes with the almost absurd number of rules and with the lack of personal decision making. I don't like that I can't drop a magazine if I feel like it, or that I can't change my target sequence if I'd like to. I didn't like when another member 'tattled' on me for having a mag pouch that was .5678" shorter than regulation length, etc. It's pretty positive overall though.

I wish there was some in-between of IDPA and 3-gun, where I could run through less gear-prevalent, game-ish scenarios, but still make use of shotgun/rifle/pistol and have some realism/personal decision making.

I used to shoot the .357 Sig in IDPA out of a Glock 33. I switched to a 5" 1911 in .45 a while back. The .45 is a little easier to pay for, to be sure. It does just fine in general. Steel goes down easy, recoil is easy. I really liked it in an IDSA 'promo' stage I shot, where they have power factors, such that 1 good hit with a .45 is about like 2 good 9mm hits, etc.  9mm will do just fine in IDPA, though, if you'd prefer the lesser recoil and cheaper round. Very understandable. Also keep in mind they still have the archaic 10 round limit.

I'd just pick what you're comfortable with in a solid combat round, get a good belt/holster/mag pouches and go to town. People will be very happy to help you get started and situated. Lacking any gear so far?
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2006, 03:59:04 PM »
Not sure.  I'm moving in less than two months, and quitting my job in about the same time.  I'll have a little more free time next year to undertake a new hobby  cool and want it to be IDPA. 
JD

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2006, 04:06:17 PM »
IDPA has a lower round count than IPSC.  Many stages are really low counts... like 6 shots, to help the revolver guys have fun, too.

IPSC is a high round count game.  20 to 30 shots per stage, and 5 to 7 stages per match, add up to lots of shooting for one day.

Jamis,

You can shoot pretty much any cartridge as long as it meets a minimum power factor (bullet wt X velocity).  Look at the respective websites for more info.

If you want to look at some IPSC videos, do a search for "Hoser Cam." 
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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 04:38:55 PM »
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Standing Wolf

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 05:00:05 PM »
We NRA Bullseye shooters get to stand still and concentrate on accuracy. Saves the high cost of shoe leather, plus it helps keep us humble.
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caseydog

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 05:51:35 PM »
Quote
So, my question is, is .45acp okay for IDPA?

Sure .45 is fine , if you shoot it well with the extra recoil.

.45 Glocks, Sigs , HK's etc (all double action variants ) compete in SSP (stock service pistol) , 1911 variants will compete in ESP (enhanced service pistol). Stock service is typically the most crowded classification and the most diverse , from rookies to experts. Enhanced "usually" draws more advanced shooters.

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2006, 04:55:12 AM »
Brian Enos is/was a top competitor in the gun games and has a good forum.

Brian's Forums

I just pop in there on occasion but rarely post. Good source of info from some guys that are the real deal.

 

DrAmazon

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2006, 06:52:59 AM »
We NRA Bullseye shooters get to stand still and concentrate on accuracy. Saves the high cost of shoe leather, plus it helps keep us humble.

I find BE to be simultaneously relaxing and frustrating.  The requirement to tune out everything else and focus exclusively on that front sight can be really helpful and relaxing.  Being forced to quiet my brain down for those brief intervals that it takes to take the shot seems to help my concentration at work.

The frustration is when I can't settle down and make it all work right. 

But seriously, I love bullseye because to get started you don't need outrageous gear (eye protection, ear protection, a .22 and a .45, maybe a pair of binoculars) and you can still win in the marksman class.  Whatever gear you are missing, someone will lend to you.  Being the only woman and often the youngest there is sometimes  kind of funny but sometimes kind of sad. Wish there were more 30-somethings playing the game.

Sigh.  Gotta quit working and get back to shooting. 
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peteinct

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2006, 07:33:52 AM »
Cosine, if you are talking rules and equipment here is a quick summary. Apologies if it is too basic.

Bullseye is target shooting one handed standing still perpendicular to the target. There are 3 rounds one 22 one centerfire one 45 for a full match. A partial match would be just the 22 stage. It is slow firing. I think at the quick fire portion you fire once every 2 seconds.It is all about accuracy.  The guns are Ruger mark IIs, High Standards, and S+W 41s, all autos. 280 Plus is a Bullseye shooter and a good one too. There are several leagues where I live.

IDPA is a "practical" pistol sport. You draw and shoot at humanoid targets set out to suggest a tactical problem. You shoot against the clock and misses from COM add time. You have to reload and move somewhat. It is somewhat fast but not blazing. You shoot maybe 20 rounds a stage at targets 3 to 15 yards away.  The guns used are carry and service weapons and gear. The stages are supossed to be revolver friendly.

I have shot some of this. It's fun and different than normal paper punching. The competition adds some stress and drawing and reloading get you some practice. The rules are strict, too strict for some about what tactics and equipment you can use. It is newby friendly, you can get into it and compete without a huge dollar expense. But you don't shoot alot for the day. There are alot of leagues for this in my area also.

IDPA is an offshoot of the next game IPSC. They say that IDPA stands for I don't practice anymore as IPSC is more demanding. Ther is alot of bad blood betweeen the factions. I don't understand it. IPSC is similiar in that you shoot, reload and move but it is more free in both tactics and equipment. The courses are more challenging and the round counts are higher. I have never shot this sport. The knock on it is that you need a high dollar 3K set up just to be competitive but there is a class now for less expensive guns. Some of the videos I've seen are amazing what the shooters can do.

3gun is an offshoot of IPSC but with rifle, shotgun and pistol. This looks fun but I've never shot a match.

My favorite is plate shooting which is head to head competition. It's just a race to see who can knock down 5 tagets first. Pin shooting is similiar but you need a higher power round to knock a bowling pin from a table. Shooting against the clock doesn't stress you like being on the line next to your opponent knowing if you lose you are out. One thing I have learned from it is that I'm a choke artist.

Hope this is helpful,
pete




cosine

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2006, 10:11:22 AM »
Thanks, peteinct. That was just the basic info I was looking for, but was having trouble finding when I was searching for it.
Andy

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2006, 03:38:28 PM »
Bullseye is target shooting one handed standing still perpendicular to the target. There are 3 rounds one 22 one centerfire one 45 for a full match. A partial match would be just the 22 stage. It is slow firing. I think at the quick fire portion you fire once every 2 seconds.It is all about accuracy.  The guns are Ruger mark IIs, High Standards, and S+W 41s, all autos. 280 Plus is a Bullseye shooter and a good one too. There are several leagues where I live.

A "gallery course" or "National Match Course" is one stage each of slow, timed and rapid fire.  Slow is 10 shots in 10 minutes, Timed is two strings of 5 shots, 20 seconds each.  Rapid is two strings of 5 shots, 10 seconds each. 

A 900 is three stages of slow, three of timed and three of rapid (not in exactly that order, but close enough).  In a full 2700 match you shoot a 900 with a .22, a 900 with a center fire gun and a 900 with a .45.

Indoor matches can be shot at distances of 50 feet to 50 yards.  Scaled targets are used on smaller ranges.  On an outdoor range, the slow stage is shot at 50 yards, timed and rapid both are shot at 25 yards. 

Yep, 50 yards, one handed, with a .45. THAT's what I call gun control.   Love it, love it love it (but simultaneously hate it, hate it, hate it!).
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Art Eatman

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2006, 06:05:19 AM »
Google up the websites of the organizations...

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2006, 06:20:43 AM »
No one has mentioned Cowboy Action Shooting??? CAS is the fastest growing shooting sport in America - I guess because it's with ole west guns it is more politically correct.

Fun stuff. Think IPSC with guns from the ole west. You must wear a period costume. You will shoot 2 revolvers, 1 rifle and 1 shotgun each stage (6 where I shoot). That's a lot of shooting. In my experience all the pistol targets are metal plates. The shotgun targets are pepper poppers.

CAS is more laid back than IPSC - most folks are there for the fun of it though I'd say about 20% are really serious competitors.

RE: IPSC and needing a $3K rig. Uhhhhh no. I've watched IPSC Grand Master rated shooters win matches at the OKC Gun Club with just a stock 1911. Those guys can shoot and reload so fast that I still sometimes find myself wondering if they're human. I even saw one shoot a Glock 22 once. IPSC is about speed and accuracy and it doesn't take a fancy rig to have that - just practice - lots and lots of practice. I've watched a bunch of guys with those super duper holsters, fancy sights and magazine wells and all the other custom addons and all that stuff got them was the ability to screw up faster.
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SpookyPistolero

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2006, 07:08:43 AM »
I think you're quite right regarding the high dollar IPSC gear. It's got it's place among those who are really in the thick of it, but the only thing that I can think of more emberassing that screwing up ad infinitum is screwing up with a few $K of gear in your hands.
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peteinct

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2006, 08:15:31 AM »
I may have not written clearly, let me rephrase, The perceived knock on IPSC is the need for expensive equipment. I've never shot it so I don't know. But let me ask a question, Can you be competitive starting out with stock equipment? Some one who is a grandmaster will win whatever the set up but what about a normal guy? All the video I've seen shows guys with 45's with red dot scopes and extended mags and purpose built competition holsters. I don't have to win a game when I play but I don't want to feel like the Florida Marlins playing the Yankees out there.

Cosmoline, I think that if you are interested in trying out a game you should do it. The character of the people involved will determine if it is enjoyable and suitable for you. In my case I like to compete and go every weekend I can, I don't feel it's only fun if I win. So I'm not completely serious. We talk and joke at our matches. Someone who is purely focused would not like it.

I have had a lot of fun competing and find it hard to get others to come out. I was nervous at first that I would look foolish or something but I was worried for nothing. SO find something nearby and just go to a match or call the match director. Most places esp. local ones would be glad to help you out.

pete

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2006, 08:58:54 AM »
Quote
Can you be competitive starting out with stock equipment? Some one who is a grandmaster will win whatever the set up but what about a normal guy? All the video I've seen shows guys with 45's with red dot scopes and extended mags and purpose built competition holsters. I don't have to win a game when I play but I don't want to feel like the Florida Marlins playing the Yankees out there.
A normal guy just getting started can't compete with the GM's - unless he or she is a closet GM who just hasn't competed before. Hell the guys who are rated Master are really, really good too.

To do well in IPSC you need:

1. A good semi-auto pistol (the higher cap mag the better to keep from having to do a reload but that only works part of the time because often the stage will require 1 or more reloads).
2. Training in the proper stance and grip techniques to reduce the affect of recoil. When I watched the videos I couldn't believe how little the guns pitched up when shot. It took one of the GM's about 5 minutes to show me the secret. When I shot I was always in the top 5 or so counting just accuracy. Speed was my downer and since speed counts for way more than accuracy in IPSC I always ranked in the bottom 5 of 30 or so. After a couple weeks of practice with the new technique I rose up in the rankings to just under the middle.
3. Reloading helps. A lot of shooters download to a point where they just make power factor. Power factor is (Muzzle Velocity times Weight)/1000. Major is 165 or more. Minor is 120(?) to 165.  What that means if you're shooting a 230 gr .45ACP all you need is a MV of 720 FPS. Mouse Phart - not cheating but IMO defeats the purpose of the game.
4. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL... Practice, Practice, Practice!!!
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Fly320s

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Re: Shooting sports
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2006, 12:37:52 PM »
Re: IPSC competitiveness with stock gear.

Yes, you can do it, if you are competing within your classification and/or equipment type.  For instance, I was doing pretty good at my club with my stock Kimber Pro Carry .40SW.  It has a 4.25" barrel and slide on a full size aluminum frame, and I was using factory ammo so I was getting quite a bit of recoil (.40 is a jumpy round, IMO).  I was shooting in the Limited 10 category which means I was limited to having 10 rounds in a magazine.  Now, I can also shoot it in the new, provisional Single Stack category with a 8 round mag limit.

But, I was really only competing against other shooters in the same category, Limited 10 (and now the new, provisional Single Stack division).  I wasn't too competitive with the Open class shooters, except for the guys who tried to buy their skill via equipment instead of via practice.

IPSC has seven classes of shooter skill levels: Unclassified (U - not enough scores to be classified), D, C, B, A, Master, and Grand Master as ranked from lower skill to higher skill.  A shooter's classification is based on his scores he achieves on designated classifier stages over a period of several shoots.  IIRC, a shooter needs to have shot six classifiers to get ranked.  The details aren't important right now, but you get the idea.  I never made enough matches to get out of the C class, although I think I could be a B class shooter.

In addition to the shooter classes, there a six catagories of gun and equipment classes: Revolver, Production, Single Stack, Limited 10, Limited, and Open.  The rules are more strict for Production becoming less strict as you move towards Open.  A plain-jane Glock will work in Production, but could also be shot in Lim 10, Limited, and Open, but would be at a disadvantage.  An Open gun may not run in the lower classes, because it probably doesn't meet the criteria on equipment limits.  For the most part Production = stock, while Open = Anything goes.  You can figure out how the equipment costs will slide.

So, you can see how you can be competitive in your category.  If you want to take your CZ or Glock with a plastic holster and three magazines to a match, you certainly can.  You could jump right in to the Production class and blaze away.  You might even win your class.  But to be competitive with every other shooter at your range, then you will need lots of skill, and maybe better equipment.  I don't have any desire to shoot Limited or Open guns, but many people do.  So be it.

There is a ton of info on IPSC and how to "game it."  The short and sweet is this: speed and accuracy win.  On stages with fewer targets, give up a little speed to gain more accuracy because with fewer targets to shoot, bad shots and misses (or shooting a no-shoot target) will be a larger part of your final score.  On stages with more targets, you may be able to sacrifice accuracy for more speed since the bad shots will be proportionaly less of your score.

Now, get out there and shoot.  Be safe, have fun as that's what it is all about.
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