Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments

[Lobotomy Boy]

What's your strategy, Mannlicher? I'm not trying to pick on you--I'm just curious about how you would solve this mess. Every time I press this issue, it usually boils down to: "Go in with overwhelming force and kill every Iraqi who hates us," which right now amounts to about 25 million of them. Proposing that solution is so useless as to be the product of a retarded mentality. Assuming that it was tactically possible to kill all 25 million remaining Iraqis, give or take the 3500 or so who are killed each month (I guess that would be "take"), which it is not, short of levelling every Iraqi village with a nuclear weapon, if we were to carry out this insane genocidal strategy, the entire world would have no choice but to go to war against us. At that point we would be worse off than Germany in 1945, and about the same level from a moral perspective.

So barring genocide or some half-witted watered-down version of the same, if you have a better strategy than "cutting and running," I'm all ears because I see no good way out of this mess at this point.

[The Rabbi]

Many in Britain said the same about Malaysia and many here said the same thing about the Philippines.  Both conflicts were won after a very long drawn-out period.  They were not won either by "strategic redeployment" or by killing every man woman and child.
And they were both described as "quagmires" by the enlightened of their time.

[Lobotomy Boy]

Rabbi, I respect your opinion, but simply pointing out similarities to other conflicts does not constitute a solution to this one. I'd appreciate hearing your suggestions for a strategy in Iraq along with the tactics you think would help us attain that strategy, because I'm at a complete loss for meaningful solutions.

[lupinus]

werewolf for pres

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, I respect your opinion, but simply pointing out similarities to other conflicts does not constitute a solution to this one. I'd appreciate hearing your suggestions for a strategy in Iraq along with the tactics you think would help us attain that strategy, because I'm at a complete loss for meaningful solutions.

-Interdicting terrorists at the borders of Iran and Syria.
-Working to strengthen the current elected government.
-Hunt down terrorist cells, including the remnants of Saddam's Mukhbarat.
-Promoting building the economy so people are too busy to become involved in terrorism and have too much stake in seeing the country fall apart.

If that sounds a lot like what we're doing now, it is.  You didnt ask for a quick solution or an easy or cheap one  There aren't any.  Nor are there any palatable alternatives.

[Werewolf]

There is no solution to the Iraq problem; it seems that most people don't really want to win because they don't really have the stomach to do what needs to be done to win.

Our Grandfathers knew what needed to be done in WWII to preserve their way of life - the complete and utter annhilation of Germany and Japan. They accomplished just that. They burned cities to the ground for no other purpose than to cause terror among the people, they bombed factories into dust, they destroyed their infrastructures and destroyed their economies resulting in the deaths of millions from starvation and disease, they even  vaporized two cities with nuclear fire and after the final surrender of our mortal enemies hung the leadership by their necks until they were dead, Dead, DEAD!

The result: Our grandfathers won their war. Those men and women didn't enjoy what they had to do but they did it because it was necessary. Their sacrifices, their courage and their will to do what needed to be done won us our freedom for 60 more years. It is too bad the world they fought so hard to preserve will be lost by the emasculated, PC wimps that are in charge now.

One other thing needs to be mentioned: After the victory, to assure there would be no repeat of the evil that lived in Germany and Japan, they rebuilt both those nations in our image.  I think they were successful for both Germany and Japan are currently among our strongest and most faithful allies (though the ally part is weakening as time goes on).

That said it must be noted that both the militaries and the peoples of Germany and Japan were thoroughly and completely defeated.  that is what made the rebuilding of those nations into loyal allies with strong economies possible.

Iraq's military was beaten but it's people weren't and until the people are as thoroughly beaten as the military, the problems in Iraq will continue.

But the west isn't going to win in Iraq and neither will it win the culture war with radical Islamists because the west no longer has the will or the cajones to do what is necessary to win. Peace, love and tolerance aren't options when your enemy wants nothing less than your head off your shoulders or your knees willingly planted on their prayer rugs.

The nature of man hasn't changed in all his history. We are a violent, warlike species. Sometimes two sides or even one of two sides hate each other to an extent that the only resolution that is possible is the complete and utter defeat  of one side or the other. All the flowery PC words in the world aren't going to change that and history going back to the dawn of man proves it. The only thing jacking your jaw along the lines of, "Can't we give peace a chance" will get you is a bill for a prayer rug or your head removed from your shoulders.

The radical islamists have the will to do what is necessary to achieve their goals. The West doesn't. More's the pity - their victory will set civilization back a thousand years.

Advise your children and/or grandchildren to invest in companies that make prayer rugs, besides getting calloused knees they'll also get rich.

ASIDE: To those who don't think the current generation is a bunch of pansy ass, cry baby wimps - think about this. In WWII a quarter of a million Americans paid the ultimate price to preserve their way of life for their children. That works out to about 185 lost lives per day, or 5543 men in a typical month during the war. Today the media and the people cry out in agony over the loss of 2500 in 3 years. Their loss is tragic but it pales in comparison to the losses suffered by our grandparent's generation. It makes me wonder if the people of America deserve the freedoms they still have.

[gunsmith]

Werewolf ,you have it right this time.
Germany and Japan are now our friends.
My family has a letter from my uncle who was killed by enemy gunfire
in France after survivng storming the beach at Normandy.
In this letter to my mom who was a little kid at the time he said
"I can't wait to shoot some Krauts"
Can you imagaine the controversy if a letter made it to the MSM saying a modern
soldier wanted to kill "Hadji"?

Werewolf your latest post is much better then your call for genocide.

imo we should never go to war without declaring war and before we commit
ground troops we bomb them into submission.

Nowadays we put our soldiers on trial if they happen to kill the enemy...where is that barf simile when you need one?

I do not want to go to war against Iran, all the Iranians I have met
are wonderful people.

if we do go to war I want to win.

[Lobotomy Boy]

Our Grandfathers knew what needed to be done in WWII to preserve their way of life - the complete and utter annhilation of Germany and Japan.

So if we do as you advise and completely and utterly annhilate Iraq, what, exactly, do we win? Iraq is well on its way to complete and utter annhilation, and what have we accomplished by taking it there? What is your overall goal? What do you hope to achieve by completely and utterly annhilating Iraq? Please explain to me how this WWII analogy is not completely and utterly insane?

-Interdicting terrorists at the borders of Iran and Syria.

The Pentagon and the Whitehouse have known for a long time that the fighters coming from Syria and Iran are only a small part of the problem. The real problem right now are the Sunni and *expletive deleted*it militias.

-Working to strengthen the current elected government.

The problem with that is that the al-Maliki government is just a front for the *expletive deleted*it militias and strengthening that government only strengthens the *expletive deleted*it militias and increases the violence rather than decreases it.

-Hunt down terrorist cells, including the remnants of Saddam's Mukhbarat.

That's a tall order, somewhere on the scale of curing cancer, but a worthy goal none-the-less.

-Promoting building the economy so people are too busy to become involved in terrorism and have too much stake in seeing the country fall apart.

You'll never even begin to rebuild the economy until you can ensure security, and at the moment there seems to be no light at the end of that tunnel.

To do what you suggest and to deal with the elephant in the room you didn't mention--the sectarian fighting--would require a massive effort on our part. It would require the type of manpower our military could only provide right now if there was a draft. It would require the re-motivation of our military leadership. It would require such a huge portion of our national treasure that there would be nothing left. It would effectively bankrupt our economy much like the Afghan war did to the economy of the Soviet Union. Morally we owe it to the people of Iraq to do this, to sacrifice our wealth and the lives of our young people in order to rectify the situation we have created, but I can't see how it would be possible to motivate the American people to do these things at this late date.

[slzy]

on 9/12 i would have cleared the decks.everybody that was not supposed to be here would go home. [most of this i thought of at the time. my long suffering friends will attest] any nation or group facing an islamic insurgency would get whatever aid they needed,and a free hand from us. israel,nigeria,russia,any and all. night vision,ground surveillance radar,whatever. and we would wage economic warfare. all done very quietly.would have talked to mossad and russian mafia separately about some folks disappearing or meeting mishap. would have let it run for a while like that. gotta be flexible

[gunsmith]

lobotomy

So if we do as you advise and completely and utterly annhilate Iraq, what, exactly, do we win? Iraq is well on its way to complete and utter annhilation, and what have we accomplished by taking it there? What is your overall goal? What do you hope to achieve by completely and utterly annhilating Iraq? Please explain to me how this WWII analogy is not completely and utterly insane?

1st they should have declared a war, and then pursued a win not a politically
correct mess we currently have.

We actually won ww2 (we being the Allies) by killing/bombing and all the nasy things that wars have.
We didn't incarcerate our soldiers for letting their guard dog bark at a prisoner.

recently a bunch of soldiers were arrested on the word of the enemy that we shot unarmed civvies.
the soldiers saw a child that had put her ears to her head seconds before an IED went off
indicating she had prior knowledge they went into the house she went into to interrogate her and any adults that may have set the bomb.
Those guys are now in jail because the enemy reported them.
No way would things like this be an issue during ww2.
people who bombed you were killed and you got a medal not a stupid court martial.

[The Rabbi]

Our Grandfathers knew what needed to be done in WWII to preserve their way of life - the complete and utter annhilation of Germany and Japan.

So if we do as you advise and completely and utterly annhilate Iraq, what, exactly, do we win? Iraq is well on its way to complete and utter annhilation, and what have we accomplished by taking it there? What is your overall goal? What do you hope to achieve by completely and utterly annhilating Iraq? Please explain to me how this WWII analogy is not completely and utterly insane?

-Interdicting terrorists at the borders of Iran and Syria.

The Pentagon and the Whitehouse have known for a long time that the fighters coming from Syria and Iran are only a small part of the problem. The real problem right now are the Sunni and *expletive deleted*it militias.

-Working to strengthen the current elected government.

The problem with that is that the al-Maliki government is just a front for the *expletive deleted*it militias and strengthening that government only strengthens the *expletive deleted*it militias and increases the violence rather than decreases it.

-Hunt down terrorist cells, including the remnants of Saddam's Mukhbarat.

That's a tall order, somewhere on the scale of curing cancer, but a worthy goal none-the-less.

-Promoting building the economy so people are too busy to become involved in terrorism and have too much stake in seeing the country fall apart.

You'll never even begin to rebuild the economy until you can ensure security, and at the moment there seems to be no light at the end of that tunnel.

To do what you suggest and to deal with the elephant in the room you didn't mention--the sectarian fighting--would require a massive effort on our part. It would require the type of manpower our military could only provide right now if there was a draft. It would require the re-motivation of our military leadership. It would require such a huge portion of our national treasure that there would be nothing left. It would effectively bankrupt our economy much like the Afghan war did to the economy of the Soviet Union. Morally we owe it to the people of Iraq to do this, to sacrifice our wealth and the lives of our young people in order to rectify the situation we have created, but I can't see how it would be possible to motivate the American people to do these things at this late date.

Sectarian fighting is a symptom of the problem, namely agitation by outsiders.  You asked what we should we do and I told you.  Dismissing it or comparing it to curing cancer is not arguing the point.  Nor have I seen any better ideas.

[Werewolf]

Our Grandfathers knew what needed to be done in WWII to preserve their way of life - the complete and utter annhilation of Germany and Japan.

So if we do as you advise and completely and utterly annhilate Iraq, what, exactly, do we win? Iraq is well on its way to complete and utter annhilation, and what have we accomplished by taking it there? What is your overall goal? What do you hope to achieve by completely and utterly annhilating Iraq? Please explain to me how this WWII analogy is not completely and utterly insane?

We gain the ability to rebuild Iraq in our own image. It's a lot easier to start from scratch than to reshape. Ultimately we gain a stable democracy. The problem now is that only the Iraqi military was defeated and that was the easy part. The Iraqi people and the radical islamists in particular haven't been defeated and until they are the job of taking them down to ground ZERO in preparation for the true task of rebuilding Iraq isn't done. The war isn't over and will not be until the people are beaten. The west doesn't have the will to do that and in my opinion will not until it is on the brink of annhilation itself and by then it will be too late.

[gunsmith]

I am a Christian and I have a deep respect for Islam and in my
youth almost converted and studied Sufism for awhile.

I feel werewolf is on the right track here, politically correct madness
will allow the islamist wahabbi/al quaida/ bearded nutjobs to win.

When we start to fight back it may be to late.

the libbys love to think they are the onesprotecting womens rights/gay rights etc.
The US military is killing bigots and the rad/libs continue to smoulder because GW won the election

[Leatherneck]

I find it difficult to understand why we cannot acknowledge that we are involved in the first stages of a culture war where the east wants nothing more than to absorb the west and wipe out its way of life. People can say that it is only the radical Islamists that want that but when the rest of them stand by and do nothing to control their radical elements then they might as well be their willing allies.

We're not in a knock down drag out war yet but we will eventually be - its not a matter of if but when.

Amen, Werewolf. We simply lack the national will to do what's needed. The current screechers of the socialist Left intend to keep it that way too. Perhaps this will change when we take a nuke in the belly.

TC

[Lobotomy Boy]

The idea of subduing Muslims in a Muslim country is akin to disabling the enemy's submarines by boiling the ocean.

[Werewolf]

The idea of subduing Muslims in a Muslim country is akin to disabling the enemy's submarines by boiling the ocean.

So you're saying we've lost then?

[Lobotomy Boy]

What I say matters no more than what you say. The reality on the ground in Iraq is what's going to determine the outcome, and that reality doesn't seem terribly connected to our ideology or morality here in the U.S.

I am saying that your proposed solution is ludicrous and completely divorced from any reality or ideology.

[gunsmith]

I am saying that your proposed solution is ludicrous and completely divorced from any reality or ideology.

Well, thats nice.

You're completely wrong of course.

I agree with you about the Glock .45 though.

[The Rabbi]

Strangely I find myself agreeing with Lobotomy Boy that genocide seems like a poor policy propounded by people without a clue,one that has zero chance of getting adopted, except by people that we'd really rather not associate ourselves with.

[gunsmith]

Was the allied victory over Japan and Germany genocide?
No.
Was it a politically correct mess like Nam and the sanddbox?
No.

If we are going to fight a war then we have to kill people and break things.

[The Rabbi]

Was the allied victory over Japan and Germany genocide?
No.
Was it a politically correct mess like Nam and the sanddbox?
No.

If we are going to fight a war then we have to kill people and break things.

In WW2 were we fighting an enemy in uniform, with a recognizable command and control structure?  Yes.
Did we measure success by the amount of territory conquered?  Yes.

I'm all for killing people and breaking stuff.  But that is only where that will lead to victory.  Indiscriminately killing people and indiscriminately breaking stuff will not.  This is not WW2.  This is the Philippines or Malaysia, and it needs to be fought like that.

[gunsmith]

Oh...ok....

[Werewolf]

What I say matters no more than what you say. The reality on the ground in Iraq is what's going to determine the outcome, and that reality doesn't seem terribly connected to our ideology or morality here in the U.S.

I am saying that your proposed solution is ludicrous and completely divorced from any reality or ideology.

So lobotomy what is your solution. So far all you've done is critisize and not on a level other than emotional so far.

So come on - lay out your plan for success in Iraq. To start with you might define success in Iraq and then let us know how you would achieve it.

[Lobotomy Boy]

If you re-read my posts, you'll see that I have no good ideas for solving this disaster. The way I see it we have two options, neither of them good. We can either invest every bit of our national resources into restoring stability to Iraq, which would require a draft and so much money that every other government program would basically have to shut down. It would also lead to the loss of tens of thousands of American lives, but after we were foolish enough to invade and overthrow a regime that kept a lid on sectarian fighting, we owe it to those people to restore security. Sure, Saddam was a bloodthirsty tyrant, but he never practiced anything nearly as brutal as what you propose, Werewolf. Say what you will about him, but he occupies higher moral ground than you do.

But that may not even be possible. If we are not going to do what it takes to restore security to Iraq, if we are just going to keep muddling along looking for a political solution, then not one more American life should be lost over there. If we are just looking for a politically expedient exit strategy, then we should bite the bullet and get out right now.

We may not have to debate this much longer. If al-Sadr pulls his support from Maliki after Maliki meets with Bush this week and the full force of the Mahdi army is unleashed on the Maliki government and U.S. troops, the war will be cranked up to a new level. We could see the spectacle of U.S. troops and personnel being evacuated from rooftops in helicopters before the end of the year.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

We can either invest every bit of our national resources into restoring stability to Iraq, which would require a draft and so much money that every other government program would basically have to shut down. It would also lead to the loss of tens of thousands of American lives,

Got any evidence or logic to back up these preposterous assertions?

We may not have to debate this much longer. If al-Sadr pulls his support from Maliki after Maliki meets with Bush this week and the full force of the Mahdi army is unleashed on the Maliki government and U.S. troops, the war will be cranked up to a new level. We could see the spectacle of U.S. troops and personnel being evacuated from rooftops in helicopters before the end of the year.

This is flat out nuts.  The Mahdi army cannot defeat US forces.  Sadr will no doubt cause all sorts of trouble, but there's no way he'll drive US forces out of Iraq.  He'll be able to kill a few American servicemen (taking huge losses in the process), and he'll be able to kill a bunch of civilians if he wants.  But he flat out won't be able to defeat the US military and force an evacuation. 

If we evacuate Iraq, it will be by our own choosing, not because some local militia drove us out.  If America loses in Iraq, it will be because we gave up.  It will be the electorate's fault, not the military's.