Author Topic: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments  (Read 12222 times)

Zoogster

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2006, 08:32:13 PM »
A civil war is a natural progression for a society forced to go from dictatorship to democracy. How  we can stop a civil war from occuring especialy when America's presence draws every anti Isreal Islamic fanatic that wants to prove himself without facing a much more hostile Israeli military on it's own turf?
 
Civil wars allow a society to force people to take sides in beliefs and lead to people killing eachother until the other agrees to abide by its beliefs in order to stop the slaughter. You end up with a much more unified and successful legitimized government afterwards as much of the open dissent is dead. It is ugly and nobody wants to repeat it a second time. America has had its own civil war and it even had one of the most ideal situations in its creation to avoid such a thing. As long as enough of the non fighting population sympathizes with opposing factions nothign will change.

Saddam was a rutheless dictator(which the west put into power to counter Iran which was seen as a bigger threat) that didn't deal with any radicalism and rulled with an ironfist. His methods were harsh and I would not have wanted to live under him, but he brought order and even prosperity to a mainly uneducated population. His government of secret police and fear, which targeted not only offenders but thier familes made people used to being governed externaly. These people are therefore not accustomed to self control from within, but self control from fear of punishment, quite different things. Now that the fear of punishment is gone (american prisons don't even begin to compare to what they consider real punishment as imposed by Saddam) there self control is gone. They must regain that self control on thier own, and quite frankly it is not likely it will remain a non puppet democracy.

Iran and Iraq had a huge war that cost both sides hundreds of thousands of lives, to imagine Iran will not do all it can to gain a firm foothold inside it's neighbor after that relatively recent history is just wishful thinking. Iran personaly benefits from keeping Iraq instable until armed forces from the west are withdrawn and it can influance the new government as it sees best for its own interests.

Both of these countries have histories entertwined that go back thousands of years and even a Persian culture and identity that is older than even the Koran the now rules the region.

The Rabbi

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2006, 11:17:13 PM »
+1 to the Headless one.  LB presents a false dichotomy based on false premises.  As for Zoogster, I wouldnt even begin to consider a post with such poor spelling and factual/logical issues to match.
The only thing that will the US withdraw is pressure at home from Dems and other defeatists.  Once we see the war as a "quagmire" and unwinnable then we won't win.  It is all a matter of perspective.  The N.Vietnamese understood this well and consciously manipulated the press here until it appeared to be a "quagmire" and unwinnable.  In fact they were losing badly on every front except the American home front.  This is really no different.
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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2006, 11:40:46 PM »
well Rabbi you have a good pint, er point. (I am sure you've had good pint's at some time in your life)
"Zoog" dude had some salient points but zoog dude save this to bookmarks/fave
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LAK

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2006, 02:12:14 AM »
zoogster
Quote
Saddam was a rutheless dictator(which the west put into power to counter Iran which was seen as a bigger threat) that didn't deal with any radicalism and rulled with an ironfist. His methods were harsh and I would not have wanted to live under him, but he brought order and even prosperity to a mainly uneducated population. His government of secret police and fear, which targeted not only offenders but thier familes made people used to being governed externaly. These people are therefore not accustomed to self control from within, but self control from fear of punishment, quite different things. Now that the fear of punishment is gone (american prisons don't even begin to compare to what they consider real punishment as imposed by Saddam) there self control is gone. They must regain that self control on thier own, and quite frankly it is not likely it will remain a non puppet democracy.
Saddam's methods were likely no harsher than those exercized in places like China, Pakistan, Turkey, Uzbekestan, Tajikistan, Indonesia and elsewhere for maintaining absolute security of government.

And I'd like to know where this "mainly uneducated" label has originated and appeared from when referring to the general population of Iraq under Hussein. Iraq had among the highest per capita level of education in the Mid East, quite civilized and undergoing rapid industrial developement starting in the 1970s.

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Lobotomy Boy

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2006, 02:55:04 AM »
Quote
The Mahdi army cannot defeat US forces.

They don't have to defeat U.S. forces. They only have to bring down the Maliki government, which is on the verge of disintigrating on its own. Once they've done that, they've defeated our policy of "Iraq-azizing" the Iraqi war (which is a Kissinger-driven take on the Kissinger concept of "Vietnamizing" the Vietnamese war, and stands an even lower chance of working as did that ill-fated policy).

As for backing up my assertations, you and I have been arguing these points for years, and near as I can tell, I've been 100 percent right and you've been 100 percent wrong, so I see no reason not to wait and let time prove you wrong once again. I see no reason why your track record should improve now, Nostradamus.
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Lobotomy Boy

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2006, 03:31:40 AM »
Rabbi, the following sums up why I disagree with your proposal--because the Iraqi government we are fighting to keep in power is so fundamentally flawed that even if we succeed following your course, we will ultimately fail:
Quote
The Next Step? Think Vietnam.
There is much moaning in Washington about the return of the 'realists.' But what we need is a Kissingerian effort to extricate America.
COVER STORY
By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15897617/site/newsweek/)

Dec. 4, 2006 issue - If you want to understand the futility of America's current situation in Iraq, last week provided a vivid microcosm. On Thursday, just hours before a series of car bombs killed more than 200 people in the Shia stronghold of Sadr City, Sunni militants attacked the Ministry of Health, which is run by one of Moqtada al-Sadr's followers. Within a couple of hours, American units arrived at the scene and chased off the attackers. The next day, Sadr's men began reprisals against Sunnis, firing RPGs at several mosques. When U.S. forces tried to stop the carnage and restore order, goons from Sadr's Mahdi Army began firing on American helicopters. In other words, one day the U.S. Army was defending Sadr's militia and, the next day, was attacked by it. We're in the middle of a civil war and are being shot at by both sides.

There can be no more doubt that Iraq is in a civil war, in which leaders of both its main communities, Sunnis and Shiites, are fomenting violence. The assault on Sadr's Ministry of Health was likely retaliation for a recent mass kidnapping at the Ministry of Education, which still retains some Sunnis. The Ministry of the Interior houses the deadliest killers from the Badr Brigades, the other large *expletive deleted*it militia. Badr's Bayan Jabr built the death squads when he ran the ministry; he's now Iraq's Finance minister, in charge of its resources. This is the Iraqi government we are protecting, funding and attempting to strengthen. To speak, as the White House deputy press secretary did last week, of "terrorists ... targeting innocents in a brazen effort to topple a democratically elected government" totally misses the reality of Iraq today. Who are the terrorists and who are the innocents? Among the most pro-American voices to emerge from the new Iraq have been two young Baghdadis, Omar and Mohammed Fadhlil, whose three-year-old blog, Iraq the Model, has promoted a relentlessly upbeat and hopeful message. Last week they threw in the towel. "I believe that America would like to see Iraq emerge as a model for the region," Mohammed wrote. "But that cannot be done without having a cooperative Iraqi partner on the ground who shares similar views for Iraq and the Middle East. And that's the pointthat partner does not exist, at least not in the government."

The American Army has more than enough troops to confront the Mahdi Army. The problem is political, not military. U.S. forces have been repeatedly blocked from going after Mahdi leaders. This month they were forced by the Iraqi government to abandon raids into Sadr City in search of a kidnapped American soldier. They were not even allowed to stop traffic in the neighborhood. Will more troops change that?

To the contrary, both sides now see American troops as the problem. The *expletive deleted*it ruling coalition and the Sunni insurgency both believe that if only the United States were to get out of the way, they could defeat their enemies outright. That's why, in the most recent poll of Iraqis, taken in September, 91 percent of Sunnis and 74 percent of Shiites said they wanted American forces to leave within a year.

While these are not conditions that suggest a political deal is likely, there is nothing to be lost in trying. When President Bush meets with Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in Jordan this week, he should make clear that Iraq's leaders need to come to an agreement that meets both sides' key demands on such issues as autonomy, oil revenues and amnesty. But he needs to deliver an ultimatum: either the government begins implementing such a deal by January or American troops will begin a drawdown, leaving the core tasks of security to Iraqi forces.

There is much moaning in Washington about the return of the "realists," like James Baker, who are allegedly pushing to surrender America's ideals as the price of bringing stability to the situation in Iraq. In fact, even stability in Iraq is unattainable. What we will soon need is a supreme act of realism, dictated not by the ascendancy of a school of thought in Washington but by events on the ground in Iraq. We will need a Kissingerian effort to extricate the United States from the catastrophe that Iraq has become.

Iraq is not Vietnam. But America's predicament in Iraq is becoming increasingly similar to the one it faced in Southeast Asia more than 30 years ago. Henry Kissinger's negotiations to end the Vietnam War have been criticized from both the left and right. One side thought he moved too slowly to get us out, the other that he gave up too much. But looking at our circumstances in Iraq should give us some appreciation for the difficulty of his task. With a losing hand and deteriorating conditions on the ground, Kissinger maneuvered to extricate the United States from a situation in which it could not achieve its objectives, while at the same time limiting the damage, shoring up regional allies and maintaining some measure of American credibility. A version of such a strategy is the only one that has any chance of success in Iraq today.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2006, 04:02:42 AM »
Amazing.  It is 1969 all over again.  It is the exact same arguments: we cannot win, the enemy is more determined than we are, our side lacks the conviction of their side, even if we win we lose.  You would think we would have learned something in 40 years but I guess not.
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Ezekiel

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2006, 05:44:38 AM »
Quote from: Rabbi
You would think we would have learned something in 40 years but I guess not.

Well, at least we're asking the same questions.

Unfortunately, I (years ago) asked such of the moronic crafters of our Iraq "plan," before this idiocy started.

Others waited and posed the question elsewhere: to an alarmed public.

This was a bad idea, executed poorly.  It doesn't have to be a quagmire, however: history should come up with its own moniker.  Sad
Zeke

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2006, 07:26:21 AM »
Quote
The Mahdi army cannot defeat US forces.

They don't have to defeat U.S. forces. They only have to bring down the Maliki government, which is on the verge of disintigrating on its own. Once they've done that, they've defeated our policy of "Iraq-azizing" the Iraqi war (which is a Kissinger-driven take on the Kissinger concept of "Vietnamizing" the Vietnamese war, and stands an even lower chance of working as did that ill-fated policy).
The end of the Maliki government isn't the unmitigated disaster or defeat you make it out to be.  For one thing, it hasn't even happened yet, and there's no guarantee that it will happen in the future.  For another, if Maliki loses his support and his government fails, that isn't a defeat for the new democratic process in Iraq.  It's simply the democratic process at work.  This is a good thing, not a disaster.  It is evidence that the constitutional democratic process is alive and well.

As for backing up my assertations, you and I have been arguing these points for years, and near as I can tell, I've been 100 percent right and you've been 100 percent wrong, so I see no reason not to wait and let time prove you wrong once again. I see no reason why your track record should improve now, Nostradamus.
This is a bit far-fetched, don't you think?  You aren't even right this time, much less 100% over the past few years.  I won't claim to be 100% right over the years, but I've been right a good deal more often than you knee-jerk defeatists have been. 

We've heard over and over again, week after week ever since this war began, how if we don't evacuate RFN we're certain to be defeated.  Obviously those predictions have been wrong each and every time they've been made.  We haven't evacuated yet, and we haven't been defeated because of it.  There isn't credible reason to believe that defeat is imminent. 

The point of all these doom and gloom predictions isn't to predict the future, it's to create the future.  If the doom and gloomers can fabricate the popular belief that we're sure to lose, then they can convince us to evacuate, thus creating a loss that wouldn't otherwise have occurred.  They aren't predicting that we'll be defeated, they're trying to make it happen.  It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that is expressly designed to cause our defeat in Iraq. 

It's the same thing that happened towards the end of the Vietnam war - the left convinces the country to stop trying to win, therefore we stop trying to win, therefore we lose.  Then the left claims that they were right all along, that we never could have won.  It was bullshit back when Kissinger was involved the first time, and it's bullshit now.  If we lose, it will be because we chose to, not because the Mahdi's or whomever beat us.


EDIT:  I mean no offense by the phrase "knee-jerk defeatists".  It strikes me that some people reflexively assume that the US is being defeated regardless of what is actually happening.  I didn't mean that phrase as an insult, but rather as a descriptive term that describes what I see from these people.  Maybe I was wrong to include you Darwin/Lobo Boy in that category.  Sorry.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2006, 07:35:15 AM »
Unfortunately, I (years ago) asked such of the moronic crafters of our Iraq "plan," before this idiocy started.
Are you again referring to the drunken, low-ranking officers from Ft. Sill? 
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Ezekiel

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2006, 08:33:12 AM »
No.  It was called a "vote."  rolleyes

Embrace the horror.

And I've never been to Ft. Sill.  In fact, I think most Indians to have been there did not do so willingly.

Iraq was, and is, doomed to end badly.  I'm just surprised that anyone has an issue with such.

Our presence in Iraq is like me crossing the city to involve myself in an internal domestic dispute because a tyrannical husband is beating his wife, owns guns (that he couldn't reach me with if he desired to), and is lowering my property value.  When I get there to help, the wife takes a swing at me.  Moral?  "I leave."  Actually, "I should have never crossed the street."  Bad idea from the beginning.

This isn't difficult...

Unfortunately, I (years ago) asked such of the moronic crafters of our Iraq "plan," before this idiocy started.
Are you again referring to the drunken, low-ranking officers from Ft. Sill?
Zeke

Darwin

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2006, 08:42:10 AM »
Quote
I won't claim to be 100% right over the years, but I've been right a good deal more often than you knee-jerk defeatists have been.

I've been looking forward to spelunking on the list to find all the examples of you being wrong for some time, and will get around to it soon, but for now I offer the pathetic ad hominum attack above as evidence that somewhere in deep down inside your reptilian brain stem you know that I am correct.

Edited to add: BTW, "Darwin" is a pseudonym--my Christian name is Lobotomy Boy.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2006, 10:39:09 AM »
So, you're the guy who claimed that we'd bail out of Iraq shortly after the midterm elections, eh?

How does it feel to be proven wrong, Mr. 100 Per Cent?  It's shortly after the election, and there hasn't even been a teensy tiny withdrawal, much less that giant "bail out" you insisted would take place.

Pardon my curiosity, but why do you feel the need to post under multiple names?

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2006, 10:48:53 AM »
I knew I'd find it somewhere.  Here is an opinion piece written just months after the war, already calling it a quagmire.  Some people were calling a quagmire even before the war.  Some people were calling the sanctions regime a quagmire.  Keep repeating something often enough and people will believe it.

Quote
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Bush's big lies, continued

In claiming that Iraq is now the central front in the war on terror, Bush is heralding a self-fulfilling prophecy: He claimed Iraq was a hotbed of terrorism, and he turned it into one.

By Robert Scheer
Page 1

September 10, 2003 | How can the president tell us with a straight face that we taxpayers have a patriotic duty to cough up $87 billion more to enable him to sink us deeper into the Iraq quagmire of his making? That's a lot of money on top of the $79 billion already appropriated by Congress in April -- enough to bail out California and every other state experiencing a budget crisis because of economic problems this president has only exacerbated. Shouldn't those who warned against Bush's folly at least qualify for another one of his signature tax rebates?

Once again, Bush is using the Big Lie technique, continuing to slyly conflate those responsible for the 9/11 attacks with Saddam Hussein and Iraq, despite there being no evidence of such a relationship. It is an insult to those who died on that day of infamy to exploit them to defend a failed policy of preemptive war designed by a bunch of think tank neoconservatives as part of a cockamamie plan to remake the Middle East.

Perhaps the most galling aspect of Bush's consistently defensive speech, however, was his naked attempt to turn what has become a security disaster for U.S. troops, United Nations workers and the Iraqi people into a positive situation. He makes it seem almost a good thing that terrorism is on the rise in Iraq, because we've got our enemies where we want them. In claiming that "Iraq is now the central front" in the "war on terror," Bush is heralding a self-fulfilling prophecy: He claimed Iraq was a hotbed of terrorism, and he turned it into one.

And by the way, what happened to the cheering crowds and the gushing oil that the administration predicted would make this a low-cost Mideast liberation venture?

Meanwhile, as Bush boasts of how many irrelevant ammunition dumps we have seized in Iraq, the region is spiraling out of control. Afghanistan is once again falling into anarchy, with the Taliban on the rebound. The Israeli-Palestinian situation is worse after the fall of Saddam, not better as the administration promised. And the mysterious kingdom of Saudi Arabia remains a very suspicious kind of "friend." Let's remember, 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers, as well as Osama bin Laden himself, were Saudis.

If there is a linchpin nation for Islamic fundamentalist terror, it remains Saudi Arabia, a fact consistently obscured by the president. Someday we may gain access to the censored portion of the 9/11 congressional report dealing with U.S.-Saudi connections. Meanwhile, we can read in the current Vanity Fair about the White House-orchestrated post-9/11 evacuation of 150 Saudis -- including relatives of Osama bin Laden -- from the United States when most flights were still grounded.

It is apparently too much to ask that the president acknowledge his errors, so costly in American and Iraqi lives, and show some humility for this mess he has created with his "my way or the highway" approach. He could also apologize to "Old Europe," which warned him that the invasion of Iraq was a distraction from the war on terror.

But never mind -- while he won't ever admit it, Bush's speech was in many ways an admission of failure. "I recognize that not all of our friends agreed with our decision" to invade and occupy Iraq, Bush magnanimously allowed. "Yet we cannot let past differences interfere with present duties." Translation: We once thought it was Europe and the United Nations' duty to shut up and get out of our way. Now we think it is their duty to hurry up and throw us a rope.

It won't work, though, because those other nations are not led by fools eager to pay for our president's war mongering. What is needed instead is a reappraisal of U.S. policy and a good-faith move to share the leadership role with countries like France, Germany, China, Russia and Japan. If the president, like his predecessors Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, refuses to cut his losses and admit the error of an unwise military adventure, he will be judged and rejected as they were for the waste of American resources and the lives of our young people.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2006, 11:13:30 AM »
HTG, I think Darwin/Lobo's variant accounts have to do with using different computers.

Darwin, your charge of ad hominem is silly.  Ad hominem is a logical flaw precisely because it distracts from real arguments.  However, accusing people of ad hominem merely on the basis of a few mild insults is a distraction in itself.  Nothing personal, I just see a lot of this, "You hurt my feelings, so ha!  You committed ad hominem, so I can ignore your thirteen paragraphs of sound, logical argument." 
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Ezekiel

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2006, 11:15:34 AM »
Quote from: HTG
Pardon my curiosity, but why do you feel the need to post under multiple names?

Merely a note, Oh Headless One, we may disagree (or agree!) on many things, but I promise to use my "real" moniker.  [edit: oh wait, I see, talking about someone else!  Little matter, I promise to suffer a singular name of post.  Cheers.]

Quote from: Rabbi
Keep repeating something often enough and people will believe it.

Thanks for the research.

I keep calling this action a quagmire because, well, it is an inefficient quagmire of a bottomless money/lives pit.  I'd be happy to refer to it as something else if the the specific word "quagmire" offends.

Would you, and/or others, accept a "perpetual FUBAR?"  Or, is that too WWII?
Zeke

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2006, 11:22:16 AM »
Quote
I'd be happy to refer to it as something else if the the specific word "quagmire" offends.  Would you, and/or others, accept a "perpetual FUBAR?"  Or, is that too WWII?

I'd be happy with, "another small war like Vietnam that we could win if we decided to, and if people would stop declaring it unwinnable or an 'illegal war.'"

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2006, 12:34:05 PM »
...pathetic ad hominum attack...

...However, accusing people of ad hominem merely on the basis of a few mild insults is a distraction in itself...
I didn't mean to be insulting when I used the phrase "knee-jerk defeatists", and if it came off as an insult then I apologize to Darwin/Lobotomy Boy.  I have no desire to insult him, merely to prove him wrong. 

Sorry!

Ezekiel

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2006, 02:58:12 PM »
I'd be happy with, "another small war like Vietnam that we could win if we decided to, and if people would stop declaring it unwinnable or an 'illegal war.'"

As would I, were your description anything close to reality.   undecided

At least you didn't suggest the moniker "righteous," because I might have vomited.
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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2006, 03:03:00 PM »
Quote
So, you're the guy who claimed that we'd bail out of Iraq shortly after the midterm elections, eh?

How does it feel to be proven wrong, Mr. 100 Per Cent?  It's shortly after the election, and there hasn't even been a teensy tiny withdrawal, much less that giant "bail out" you insisted would take place.

Pardon my curiosity, but why do you feel the need to post under multiple names?

Correct--multiple names because of multiple computers and accounts.

As for being proven wrong, let's see what the situation is after we've had a few weeks to digest the results of the Baker-Hamilton Commission's report.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2006, 04:18:07 PM »
Back in that other thread, you said the following:
I said that we will be bailing out of Iraq by year's end, a process that will begin shortly after the mid-term election. The election will only change the terminology used to describe the process, but the process will remain the same regardless of the terminology. Yes it will be gloomy. It will be an ugly disaster. But I believe it is coming.

regardless, arguing it ad nauseum would be a waste of time. We only have to wait a month or so to see if I am right or wrong.
Back on 18 Oct, you said we'd only have to wait until shortly after the midterm election, another month or so, to see if you were right or if you were wrong.  Well, the midterms are history and it's been a month (more than a month actually, nearly 6 weeks).    According to your own words, we should have already seen the beginnings of this bail out. 

We haven't, not even close.  I'll withhold final judgment until January, but we've seen that you're wrong so far. 

If I were you I would ease off on any boasts of 100% accuracy in your prediction-making, Nostradamus ( Tongue ).


Lobotomy Boy

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2006, 06:53:42 PM »
So if the process begins two months after October 18, or maybe even a few weeks after that because the Baker-Hamilton report is delayed, does that constitute "a month or so"? I'd say that is a lot closer to spot on than anything you've predicted.

Nothing is going to happen until the Baker-Hamilton report is released. Once that comes out, it will give politicians cover to begin drawing down troops. If the Maliki government falls, the drawdown will be precipitous because without a functioning government, our plan to have Iraqi troops replace American troops will be null and void because without a functioning government there are no Iraqi troops--there are only militias. If we are trying to get the militias to stand up, we don't have to try to hard because they already are standing up. But which militias do we support? They're all trying to kill us. At this point any argument for staying in Iraq won't carry any water with the American people and we'll have to bring our troops home.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2006, 08:54:36 PM »
Sure, we'll wait until the end of the year before making final judgments.  But before you start criticizing me for false predictions, bear in mind that you predicted we'd see the beginning of a withdrawal two weeks ago.  We haven't seen anything of the sort.  Simply put, you were wrong on that prediction and you were dishonest in your claim of 100% accuracy.

If Maliki's government fails, it won't be the end of the world.  Democratic governments routinely fail when the system is such that the head honcho needs to maintain a coalition in order to remain in power.  If Maliki loses his coalition, it will be a personal loss for him and, to a lesser extent his supporters.  But it will not herald the end of the Iraqi democracy.  It's the democratic process at work.

Consider that the Israeli government under this man or that man fails on an alarmingly frequent basis, often several times a year.

Lobotomy Boy

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2006, 04:11:30 AM »
If we hear about some sort of draw-down (withdrawal) plan by the end of the year, then it has been in the works for quite some time (probably since last summer), so it's pretty hard to determine when it began. I guess we'll just have to wait for Bob Woodward's next book to learn that.

Comparing the Maliki government to Israel's government is absurd. If a ruling party fails, there is still a functioning parliment to pick up the pieces. There is nothing even close to a functioning parliment in Iraq. If there was, the security situation is so bad that the members would be executed on their way to work.

You are right that the failure of the Maliki government will not hearld the end of democracy in Iraq because there has never yet been democracy in Iraq. There have been elections, of course, but Maliki wasn't elected. He was appointed by a coalition of Iraqis that consisted primarily of *expletive deleted*it clerics. You can't lose what you never had to start with. By your measure the Maliki government was a failure from the get go.

But Maliki falling will indicate a complete failure of the administration's rhetoric, which is that we will stand down as the Iraqis stand up. This is the exact same rhetoric we used to extricate ourselves from Vietnam. That policy was an utter failure, but I believe it will look like a shining success compared to what we are about to suffer in Iraq. If there is no functioning Iraqi government to control Iraqi forces, the forces then become part of the militia engaged in civil war. The American people will not tolerate us sacrificing our troops in the middle of a civil war in which all sides are our enemies. The people spoke loudly a few weeks ago, and if anything support for the war effort has diminished in the intervening weeks. If the Maliki government falls, that puts us back to where we were when Bremer was still running the show, except that the security situation has deteriorated dramatically since then. The American people will not support starting the whole process over from scratch, especially since there is now a low-grade civil war raging in the country.
Raging against tyranny since 2006.

Eleven Mike

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Re: Henry Kissinger Iraq Comments
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2006, 04:33:01 AM »
I'd be happy with, "another small war like Vietnam that we could win if we decided to, and if people would stop declaring it unwinnable or an 'illegal war.'"

As would I, were your description anything close to reality.   undecided

At least you didn't suggest the moniker "righteous," because I might have vomited.

I'm sorry, is there something morally or legally wrong with our decision to invade Iraq?  I'll amend my statement just for you:

Another small, righteous war like Vietnam that we could win if we decided to, and if people would stop declaring it unwinnable or an "illegal war."