Is it time to dump the F-35 and go in a different direction?

[just Warren]

Sopwith Camel more in line with your budget?

He can't afford to fly the thing so to get it anywhere he whistles up a big Camel tow.

[wmenorr67]

You know this subject matter here is fighter aircraft but the DOD does a good job of trying to do the same thing in other areas and fails miserably at it also.

There is an intel system, DCGS, that is supposed to have a version for each branch of the military.  All the other analyst from the other branches, not the Army, have never really heard of it nor used it much other than a few Marines.  The system is expensive, only "works" at the Secret level, and the system itself is cumbersome and time consuming to set up to "work" properly.

[Scout26]

The DOD decides roles and missions and then forces the various branches to use the same tools to accomplish different missions.  And we've tried it several times with limited success (Airplanes have different roles and missions, but a tank is a tank is a tank.)

One reason we did so well in WWII was that we had a large variety of aircraft in each theater.  The Japanese basically had Zeros (which Claire Chennault figured out how to defeat even before he was with the Flying Tigers) and Oscars.  The Germans had Bf/Me-109's and FW-190's.  Again, once you understand their strengths and weaknesses you know how to defeat them.   

We're putting all our eggs in one airplane basket and hoping that no one figures out how to defeat them.

Seems the Air Force hasn't figured out that a Combined Arms approach with complimentary aircraft is the only way to win.   

[MechAg94]

I would also say that in WWII we developed our training programs and fielded better and more aircraft as the war went on.

[RevDisk]

My gut tells me that it's a combination of:

45% - Sour grapes, companies aced out of the design competitions, or not chosen as subcontractors, and who are bending ears of Congresscritters who aren't getting jobs/pork in their state.

45% - The typical human nature that it's easier to seem/sound "smarter" when you're criticizing something and pointing out all it's flaws. (real or perceived)

10% - Actual legitimate design/performance concerns, and cost/procurement "scandals" and underestimates which frankly all the front line fighters that went on to have good service lives had in their development. F4, F14, F15, F16, F18...

If cost was excluded, you'd be right. But every bitch is warranted due to the costs involved. Around $1.5T and only climbing. Or $5,000 out every American's pocket. For 162 aircraft.

The other legitimate issue is, it's one platform. Sorta. Allegedly. Not really, at all. I don't disagree with the concept of "use as many interchangeable parts as economical", so long as folks remember the "as economical". As other folks have said, using one tool for twenty purposes gives you at best two or three good results and seventeen or eighten bad results. Not even knocking the F-35 on that score, it's not possible for one platform to do everything.

Yes, a lot of the moaning is overstated. But a lot of it isn't.

[Scout26]

I would also say that in WWII we developed our training programs and fielded better and more aircraft as the war went on.

Yes, and still fighting the same airplanes in 1945 that you fought in 1939 (while yours have vastly improved) make the training easier.   Those pilots that went and learned the hard way how to defeat the Zero and the 109 to pass along those lessons.  Hell, it took us a while to figure out that the was to defeat Me262's was to nail them on take-offs or landings.  I don't think they lost more then a dozen in dogfights.

[agricola]

The DOD decides roles and missions and then forces the various branches to use the same tools to accomplish different missions.  And we've tried it several times with limited success (Airplanes have different roles and missions, but a tank is a tank is a tank.)

One reason we did so well in WWII was that we had a large variety of aircraft in each theater.  The Japanese basically had Zeros (which Claire Chennault figured out how to defeat even before he was with the Flying Tigers) and Oscars.  The Germans had Bf/Me-109's and FW-190's.  Again, once you understand their strengths and weaknesses you know how to defeat them.   

We're putting all our eggs in one airplane basket and hoping that no one figures out how to defeat them.

Seems the Air Force hasn't figured out that a Combined Arms approach with complimentary aircraft is the only way to win.   

Not sure that is right, tbh. 

The reason for Allied success in the WW2 air war was that they were able to keep up pilot training with losses, they had a considerable material superiority (an overwhelming one in the Pacific - was it Leyte Gulf where you had more destroyers present than the Japanese had aircraft?), and that as time went on Allied technology was usually a lot more effective (or at least more effectively employed) than the Axis, with even the Germans wasting their effort on a succession of blind alleys (the Me-262 fighter-bomber, the He-177 etc).

Or to put it another way, as good as the Zero was surely its the case that the Hellcat and Corsair were far superior aircraft to it (or indeed anything else the Japanese could put up)? 

[TommyGunn]

  ....  with even the Germans wasting their effort on a succession of blind alleys (the Me-262 fighter-bomber, the He-177 etc).

The Me-262 was hardly a "blind alley."  It was the world's first operational jet fighter.  Hitler interfered with its development by insisting it be a bomber and engineers had to revise their drawings and add hardpoints for bombs, etc, then Hitler relented.  The result was the program was delayed.  The Me262 was an excellent fighter, outstripping anything the allies had in speed, but it was never produced in sufficient numbers to make a real difference.  That's not a "blind alley;"  a blind alley is a technology track that doesn't go anywhere.  Since we now live with jet fighters as common aircraft that are employed by many air forces the 262 can hardly be seen as a blind alley.

If you wanna see something scarey that was never actually built, look up "Triebfluegel." 

[Scout26]

Which seems to make my point.

Yes, we had better pilot training.  Why??  Because we were fighting against the same aircraft in 1943, that we had figured out how to kill in 1939.  Meanwhile, the best of Japan's pilots were dead, and those doing the training had little to no experience against the newer, better American aircraft.  

The American F6F Hellcat fighter proved a capable weapon. Its powerful engine generated superior speed, and its protection and firepower made it rugged and deadly. The Japanese were still flying the A6M Zero, which though highly maneuverable and revolutionary during the early stages of the Pacific War, showed its age by 1943 standards as being underpowered and fragile, and quickly became obsolete in 1944. In addition, the D4Y "Judy", though fast, was also fragile and easily set afire. The Japanese naval airmen were also largely inadequately trained. The Japanese preparation programs could not replace the quality aviators lost during the past two years of the Pacific Campaign. Flying against the well-trained and often veteran U.S. aviators, it was a one-sided contest. The Americans lost fewer than two dozen Hellcats in air-to-air combat, and garnered nearly 480 Japanese kills, 346 of those carrier aircraft on 19 June alone.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea

Leyte Gulf was where we had 166 destroyers and destroyer escorts to the Japanese 300 aircraft.

[agricola]

The Me-262 was hardly a "blind alley."  It was the world's first operational jet fighter.  Hitler interfered with its development by insisting it be a bomber and engineers had to revise their drawings and add hardpoints for bombs, etc, then Hitler relented.  The result was the program was delayed.  The Me262 was an excellent fighter, outstripping anything the allies had in speed, but it was never produced in sufficient numbers to make a real difference.  That's not a "blind alley;"  a blind alley is a technology track that doesn't go anywhere.  Since we now live with jet fighters as common aircraft that are employed by many air forces the 262 can hardly be seen as a blind alley.

If you wanna see something scarey that was never actually built, look up "Triebfluegel." 

It was certainly a blind alley for them - the amount of (increasingly scarce) resources they threw at it (and the He-177, and the V1/2 programme) ended up benefiting them not a lot and their enemies a considerable amount. 

Those 1200 Me-262 could have been 4-5,000 Fw-190s, delivered at a time when the Fw-190 was desperately needed and was competitive against Allied aircraft.