Author Topic: Gravitational waves  (Read 6552 times)

MechAg94

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Gravitational waves
« on: February 11, 2016, 05:21:41 PM »
Gravitational waves: breakthrough discovery after two centuries of expectation
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/feb/11/gravitational-waves-discovery-hailed-as-breakthrough-of-the-century
I thought this group might be interested in this link. 
Quote
Physicists have announced the discovery of gravitational waves, ripples in the fabric of spacetime that were first anticipated by Albert Einstein a century ago.

“We have detected gravitational waves. We did it,” said David Reitze, executive director of the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (Ligo), at a press conference in Washington.

The announcement is the climax of a century of speculation, 50 years of trial and error, and 25 years perfecting a set of instruments so sensitive they could identify a distortion in spacetime a thousandth the diameter of one atomic nucleus across a 4km strip of laserbeam and mirror.

I am still not quite sure how they determined the black hole thing was the cause of the waves they detected. 
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AJ Dual

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2016, 05:42:13 PM »
Gravitational waves: breakthrough discovery after two centuries of expectation
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/feb/11/gravitational-waves-discovery-hailed-as-breakthrough-of-the-century
I thought this group might be interested in this link.  
I am still not quite sure how they determined the black hole thing was the cause of the waves they detected.  

Because it's a signal, if made into sound would be something like WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIZZZZZZIIIiiiiiiipppp(squeak!) at the end.

The objects have to be MASSIVE, like stellar mass or higher, and spinning/spiraling around each other faster and faster and faster. And only things like black holes or neutron stars could pull this off and make a detectable signal that had an amplitude fast enough to be detected, and having it increasing as they spiraled into each other. Stars, planets, rocks... alien machines, nothing would hold together other than black holes or neutron stars circling each other that closely and that fast. They get up to a big portion of light-speed at the end there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyDcTbR-kEA (the little increasing "blip!" at the end... of the sound)

Here's a more played out simulation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QpGy2QAkg

The beats are the peaks of the gravitational waves as would be detected by a laser interferometer such as LIGO. As the waves/ripples of stretched/compressed space-time pass by Earth, the path-distance of the interferometer laser beams changes ever so slightly short-longer-shorter-longer etc. and makes a detectable signal.

Also, this is something we'd not want to ever see "optically" anywhere within several tens, hundreds, maybe of thousands of light years, because it would be extremely unhealthy in terms of gamma rays x-rays etc.

I guess two black holes could merge like this in really "clean" interstellar or intergalactic space, but there's really enough interstellar hydrogen around that they'd be whipping through going down into accretion disks and getting accelerated to almost light-speed, the radiation would still be immense.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2016, 06:14:20 PM »
Just wait; they'll find out that gravity waves travel at 17.4 miles per hour, and those were actually pea sized black holes colliding at one of our own Lagrange points a few weeks ago.

HankB

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2016, 06:59:50 PM »
I remember when some guy (Weber?) was trying to detect gravity waves by putting strain gages on big - IIRC, about 1m diameter - aluminum cylinders separated by thousands of miles, and correlating the signals he got out.

He announced that he discovered gravity waves, and a co-researcher confirmed it. Now, the co-researcher did nothing of the kind, and when he pointed out that he recorded his measurements in GMT time and Weber did it in local time . . . and yet the data matched exactly with no time zone correction . . . people started taking a closer look at his experiment.

When it turned out that his strain gages were allegedly detecting distortions in the aluminum cylinders that were on the order of 1/100 the diameter of an atomic nucleus . . . things got ugly.
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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2016, 07:24:33 PM »
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2016, 07:28:39 PM »
gnarly waves man
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2016, 08:49:44 PM »
His announcement at the beginning of the video "We - detected - gravitational - waves," sounds pretty funny to a lay audience. "Dude, you guys just now found out about gravity?"
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230RN

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2016, 04:12:14 AM »
Clarify something for me.

If we were observing from a stable angle normal to the plane of their mutual orbit, we would not be able to detect the gravitational waves, right?  (At least with our current instrument.)

We can only detect them if we are observing from an angle more parallel to their mutual orbit, right?

The best observations would occur if we were exactly parallel to (in line with, on the same plane as) their mutual orbit, right?

If this is the case, and the tops of the observed curves are nice and smooth (sinusoidal), this would imply that gravity waves can not only penetrate a black hole, but could get through it and back out again on its opposite side.... right?  

If not, the tops of the curves would have a slight dip as the two black holes aligned with each other in our line of sight. The nearer one would occlude the gravity field of the other, and we could not detect any summation with the farther black hole's gravity at that particular point in their mutual orbit.  Hence the "dip" I postulated above.

Going back to "If this is the case," above, this would further imply that gravity waves either can't have any particle-like characteristics, or if they do, the particle's velocity must be high enough to exceed the escape velocity of the black hole as they emerge from the opposite side.

???

Terry
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 04:48:24 AM by 230RN »
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Kingcreek

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2016, 10:19:39 AM »
Great, now we can add gravitational waves to climate change on the list of things we have to fix.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2016, 10:43:20 AM »
Clarify something for me.

If we were observing from a stable angle normal to the plane of their mutual orbit, we would not be able to detect the gravitational waves, right?  (At least with our current instrument.)

We can only detect them if we are observing from an angle more parallel to their mutual orbit, right?

The best observations would occur if we were exactly parallel to (in line with, on the same plane as) their mutual orbit, right?

If this is the case, and the tops of the observed curves are nice and smooth (sinusoidal), this would imply that gravity waves can not only penetrate a black hole, but could get through it and back out again on its opposite side.... right?  

If not, the tops of the curves would have a slight dip as the two black holes aligned with each other in our line of sight. The nearer one would occlude the gravity field of the other, and we could not detect any summation with the farther black hole's gravity at that particular point in their mutual orbit.  Hence the "dip" I postulated above.

Going back to "If this is the case," above, this would further imply that gravity waves either can't have any particle-like characteristics, or if they do, the particle's velocity must be high enough to exceed the escape velocity of the black hole as they emerge from the opposite side.

???

Terry

My guess is that the shared orbiting plane between merging black holes, the gravity waves would be the strongest edge-on to Earth, but they would emanate spherically in all directions to some degree or another with more twisty filaments of space-time along the poles or their mutual axis of revolution.

Even single black-holes will twist up space-time with their rotation in a region near the event-horizon called the ergosphere. But that's more like twisting up spaghetti on a fork than waves created in water or air.

Gravity on the small scale is kinda/sorta like photons, that in a ham-fisted analogy has a wave-particle duality. At least theoretically, on the quantum scale there is a graviton, massless with characteristics of other force particles. But it has a fundamental problem of not being directly detectable, because you've got a kind of chicken-n-egg catch-22 problem of what to see it with.  But if we can, or someone figures out a scientifically rigorous way to detect them it would go a long way to getting a handle on superunification, quantum-gravity, or "theory of everything".

But on the macro-scale, gravity is like a wave, or at least can be modulated wave-like, but instead of an EM wave, it's more akin to sound-waves in air, they're like density waves (again, ham-fisted analogies here) in space-time itself, in the rubber-sheet model how gravity is a curvature of space-time drawing mass/energy together because they follow the path of least resistance into the "dip" or "hole". The waves don't pass through the black holes on a 2D simulation, it's like the waves coming off of two pencils being dragged around each other in a circle in a pool of water.

Space-time itself goes all the way into the black holes, so the idea if the waves can pass through black holes or not might be kind of moot, It's like asking if waves can pass through a whirlpool, but the water goes into the whirlpool, the whirlpool is the water... In the rubber-sheet analogy, it gets so steep, like it's being poked down with a long pin, that it's almost vertical. What happens in the singularity, does it "poke through" into "somewhere else" or what?... possibly unknowable. Because physical laws and constants break down there and a meaningful frame of reference might not be possible.

And a very sensitive laser interferometer like LIGO can see the waves, because as the waves pass us by, space actually shrinks and stretches a tiny bit, and the lasers bouncing back and forth have a little bit longer or shorter distance to go, and the interference pattern acts like a very powerful magnifying glass allowing us to see that.

Discussing this is really hard though, because when physicists say "I can't really explain it without the math" they're not lying, because the way things on the particle scale behave, or the higher dimensional nature of space-time, things simply don't act in the way our human-scale brains that process the regular 3-D Newtonian world can really imagine.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2016, 11:07:51 AM »
Space-time itself goes all the way into the black holes, so the idea if the waves can pass through black holes or not might be kind of moot, It's like asking if waves can pass through a whirlpool, but the water goes into the whirlpool, the whirlpool is the water... In the rubber-sheet analogy, it gets so steep, like it's being poked down with a long pin, that it's almost vertical. What happens in the singularity, does it "poke through" into "somewhere else" or what?... possibly unknowable. Because physical laws and constants break down there and a meaningful frame of reference might not be possible.

Women might even use logic there.

Quote
Discussing this is really hard though, because when physicists say "I can't really explain it without the math" they're not lying, because the way things on the particle scale behave, or the higher dimensional nature of space-time, things simply don't act in the way our human-scale brains that process the regular 3-D Newtonian world can really imagine.

I'm still not even entirely sure they can explain it with the math.  I think most of the postgrad work at that level of physics is really just indoctrination into the secret society where they agree to vomit enough Greek alphabet soup onto a whiteboard that even the math majors give up and just nod silently in feigned understanding and agreement lest they show any sign of being lost by the "equations."

AJ Dual

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2016, 11:40:20 AM »
I'm still not even entirely sure they can explain it with the math.  I think most of the postgrad work at that level of physics is really just indoctrination into the secret society where they agree to vomit enough Greek alphabet soup onto a whiteboard that even the math majors give up and just nod silently in feigned understanding and agreement lest they show any sign of being lost by the "equations."

Fortunately, there's a lot of testable predictions in all of it. If not, stuff like the GPS system wouldn't work right. That alone has to compensate for the light lag of the radio signals to reach Earth from orbit, and the teeny microsecond differences between clocks running at the bottom of Earth's gravity well and up out of it in orbit.
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230RN

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2016, 12:11:16 PM »
^ "Fortunately, there's a lot of testable predictions in all of it."

That's why I was wondering if there were little down-going blips in the peaks of the detectable wave.  Sort of like an odd third harmonic (blue line in the image), except the whole wave is biased to never fall below zero so you don't see a positive-going blip halfway around the cycle.



(Pic credit in Properties.)

I doubt if that current instrument could detect that yet, though, and the "best" viewing angle for that would be if we could observe them with the plane of their orbit(s) directly edge on --that is, if they occlude each other in their orbits as we look at them.

"Look."  Heh.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 12:24:25 PM by 230RN »
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AJ Dual

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2016, 12:20:08 PM »
^ "Fortunately, there's a lot of testable predictions in all of it."

That's why I was wondering if there were little down-going blips in the peaks of the detectable wave.

I doubt if that current instrument could detect that yet, though, and the "best" viewing angle for that would be if we could observe them with the plane of their orbit(s) directly edge on --that is, if they occlude each other in their orbits as we look at them.

"Look."  Heh.

It detected the frequency going Ziiiiiiiipppp! as the two black holes did their final merge...

http://www.ligo.org/science/Publication-GW150914/index.php

And they could tell the merging black holes were somewhere in the southern sky, from the light speed millisecond delay between the two different instruments.

Presumably, if we had three LIGO's spaced more evenly around the world, we could get triangulation that's more precise into at least a general patch of sky a few degrees wide where it happened.

(edit) Reading further, a third Gravity Wave laser interfereometer is going online in Italy, which will provide that third observation point...
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 12:24:19 PM »
twisty filaments of space-time


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230RN

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2016, 12:28:12 PM »
It detected the frequency going Ziiiiiiiipppp! as the two black holes did their final merge...

http://www.ligo.org/science/Publication-GW150914/index.php

And they could tell the merging black holes were somewhere in the southern sky, from the light speed millisecond delay between the two different instruments.

Presumably, if we had three LIGO's spaced more evenly around the world, we could get triangulation that's more precise into at least a general patch of sky a few degrees wide where it happened.


I was adding an image while you were posting, and I was only referring to one cycle of their orbit.  Obviously, as the period of their orbits shortened, the frequency of the wave would go up in that end-squeak.  Sort of like twirling a weight on a string around your finger, I suppose.  As the string winds around your finger and gets shorter, the RPMs increase.

But the blip should still be there in each individual cycle.

Terry
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AJ Dual

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2016, 12:47:23 PM »
What amazes me is that the "drag" from space-time itself caused the two black holes to shed several sun's worth of mass as gravity wave energy.  [tinfoil]


And that the mass/energy conversion of that outdid the regular EM radiation of every shining star/galaxy in the observed universe while it was happening.

No wonder it's detectable 100Bn LY away. Jeez.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2016, 06:55:10 PM »
What amazes me is that the "drag" from space-time itself caused the two black holes to shed several sun's worth of mass as gravity wave energy.  [tinfoil]


And that the mass/energy conversion of that outdid the regular EM radiation of every shining star/galaxy in the observed universe while it was happening.

No wonder it's detectable 100Bn LY away. Jeez.


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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2016, 07:08:45 PM »
Impossible, the universe is only 7000 years old.
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230RN

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2016, 02:01:09 AM »
AJ Dual remarked,

Quote
What amazes me is that the "drag" from space-time itself caused the two black holes to shed several sun's worth of mass as gravity wave energy.
 

This is getting pretty far away from my knowledge base, but could that account for "Dark Matter" somehow?  I'm sure the event we observed can't be unique.

Terry
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Ron

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2016, 10:34:55 PM »
Impossible, the universe is only 7000 years old.

All the cool kids know that everything "popped" into existence from nothing, a real real long time ago.

Chaos and/or randomness gave "birth" to order. You don't really need to wonder where all the information in the universe came from, because, science.

The inanimate is the source of the animate, you know, life spontaneously erupts from non life, all the time, or not, nevermind, details.

Order comes from chaos, life comes from non-life, sentience comes from the unconscious/mechanical. Sentience? Sorry, just an illusion.

Purpose and meaning are just illusions/delusions of bio/chemical machine operating on auto pilot trying to survive. "You" are not really anything anything other than a meat machine trying to reproduce. Welcome to the brave new world of nihilism! Isn't it beautiful? Oh never-mind, beauty is just another illusion, carry on.

Don't question the "answers" the scientists give you, just believe! (it's all peer reviewed and consensus agreed). Plus statistics!

Just for the record Ron doesn't know how old the earth is and suspects that nobody alive really does either. The understood age of stuff (like the universe) seems to change periodically as science discovers new wonders of reality.

Meteorologists can't get tomorrows weather correct but "science" is going to preach to me unknowable details as dogma regarding the past and the future; got it. It's only sensible and reasonable, whatever the hell that means these days.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2016, 11:35:14 PM »
AJ Dual remarked,
 

This is getting pretty far away from my knowledge base, but could that account for "Dark Matter" somehow?  I'm sure the event we observed can't be unique.

Terry

Well, it could be. It's not a bad idea. I could see mass/energy concentrations that warp space-time, and that warpage having some additional energy to it that gives off a secondary gravitational field. Or something large like a galaxy having some additional mass or drag in space-time from it's own rotation within space-time or... something.

But I'm guessing that the astrophysics brains out there know better, or have some good reasons why that isn't a candidate for dark matter.

Kind of reminds me about the theories that gravity is actually repulsive at ultra-long distances, and a possible cause of inflation, and universal expansion, and how the further things are, the faster they're moving away. The accelerating expansion we see beyond the simple factor of geometric acceleration at distance in the blowing up a balloon with polka-dots on it analogies.
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birdman

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2016, 10:07:23 AM »
Well, it could be. It's not a bad idea. I could see mass/energy concentrations that warp space-time, and that warpage having some additional energy to it that gives off a secondary gravitational field. Or something large like a galaxy having some additional mass or drag in space-time from it's own rotation within space-time or... something.

Not nearly enough energy density.  On average, the dark matter (attractive) mass-energy is ~10x the mass-energy density of normal matter, and dark energy (repulsive) is 10+x that.  Since it's now know that those colliding black-holes (each about 30 solar masses) created about ~1 solar mass of gravitational wave energy, that means that for every 1 solar mass of normal stars, a gravity-wave producing even must have occured -at least- 3,000 times over the universe lifetime...which means we would detect it (by virtue of the gravity wave energy being sufficient to have freakin macroscopic effects!), so that can't be a candidate.

Gravity is weak...really weak...so for any type of gravitational effect to have substantive energy content, it's really hard.  For example, the greatest gravitational potential energy is something falling into a black-hole, and even then it's a maximum of about 35% of mc^2, so orders of magnitude lower than other forms of potential energy (hell, in charged, magnetized, rotating collapsed bodies, the rotational, electrostatic, and magnetic potential energy exceeds the gravitational by a bunch. (Why magnetars are so wicked cool)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2016, 10:49:56 AM »
Don't question the "answers" the scientists give you, just believe! (it's all peer reviewed and consensus agreed). Plus statistics!


Funny how that works.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Gravitational waves
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2016, 02:48:33 PM »
Don't question the "answers" the scientists give you, just believe! (it's all peer reviewed and consensus agreed). Plus statistics!


Trying to impeach relatively straightforward mathematics of things like redshift of distant galaxies, placement of geological strata, or isotope ratios in rocks, by conflating them with the slippery fractal chaos of weather isn't the best way to build an indictment of science/secular-humanism... but whatever.
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