Auto Thieves Drown, Cops Blamed

[Scout26]

Thought about that remark about opening car doors underwater .

Hm.  Water pressure force on the door, assuming 9 feet in average depth and a 4 sq ft door is over 2,000 lb if my arithmetic is correct.

I'm not signing this one 'cause I'm not sure my 'rithmetic is correct.

Which, IIRC from Mythbusters, is why you have to let the car fill with water.  To equalize the pressure on both side.   Even then.  Trying to open a car door at 15 feet below in the dark, with three panicking perps is a losing proposition for all sides.  

[Firethorn]

Or better yet, carry a device that can shatter the window.  They run $2-12 for devices that have a hammer to break the window and a cutter for the seatbelt.  Fancier ones might have a flashlight, spring punch tool, whistle, reflectors, etc...

[230RN]

Hmmm.  I'm not so sure about the wisdom of busting a window underwater with that much total force on it.

Any experience-based wisdom on that?

I expect rolling it down would be better... also makes me wonder what happens when the battery is flooded, for electric windows.

"Any experience-based wisdom on that," too?

(I'm kind of curious about this whole thing since many years ago an acquaintance of mine drowned when he took a curve too fast and flipped his truck upside-down into water.  Left wife and two kids.  That particular curve has been straightened out, I note in modern maps of the area.)

Terry

[makattak]

Thought about that remark about opening car doors underwater .

Hm.  Water pressure force on the door, assuming 9 feet in average depth and a 4 sq ft door is over 2,000 lb if my arithmetic is correct.

I'm not signing this one 'cause I'm not sure my 'rithmetic is correct.

That's why, I believe, most underwater rescue training suggests breaking the window or, preferably, opening it a crack before submerging.

Edit: I see I was late to the party on this one.

[Hawkmoon]

Hmmm.  I'm not so sure about the wisdom of busting a window underwater with that much total force on it.

Any experience-based wisdom on that?

I expect rolling it down would be better... also makes me wonder what happens when the battery is flooded, for electric windows.

"Any experience-based wisdom on that," too?

Window can only be opened from inside. Probably electric, so may or may not have been working after immersion. Even if it was, try convincing three panicked teen-age girls that the only way to get them out of the car is to let the water in ... not likely, IMHO.

Which leaves -- breaking the glass. Every underwater rescue I can recall reading about involved breaking either the driver's side window or the windshield.

[Boomhauer]

I just watched 7 minutes of the sheriff shove it up the hindquarters of the media who, as usual, picked and chose what they wanted to say about the situation and twisted it all into a bunch of BS.  There is a lot of video and detailed reports of what went on.  The media didn't do their job.  What happened is not what the media is reporting.  The police did a good job and made an attempt to save the thieves.  Unfortunately, their continuous criminal behavior got them killed.  It's on them.  Sad state of affairs is the cultural wasteland that is the reality of a fair segment of our countrymen.   

This so much.

The media gets it wrong, and I know that *expletive deleted*it is on purpose, 99.99% of the time because they have an agenda to twist the story and outright lie to stir up outrage against the police and sympathy for the shitheads.

God I *expletive deleted*ing hate reporters.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

This so much.

The media gets it wrong, and I know that *expletive deleted*it is on purpose, 99.99% of the time because they have an agenda to twist the story and outright lie to stir up outrage against the police and sympathy for the shitheads.

God I *expletive deleted*ing hate reporters.

The truth doesn't make near as exciting a story

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[HeroHog]

Electric windows and other electric devices will operate a surprisingly good while after initial submersion however, the pressure on the glass against the window tracks may be more than the mechanism can handle preventing them from being operated either manually or electronically.

[Ben]

Thought about that remark about opening car doors underwater .

Hm.  Water pressure force on the door, assuming 9 feet in average depth and a 4 sq ft door is over 2,000 lb if my arithmetic is correct.

I'm not signing this one 'cause I'm not sure my 'rithmetic is correct.

Several iterations of ASTC (Aviation Survival Training Center) school lets me tell you that no, you're not getting the door open until the vehicle pretty much completely floods. The first time I went through it from the inside of the "aircraft", I was an experienced govt diver (so completely used to being underwater and with "out of air" emergencies), upside down in 10' of water in controlled conditions with a Navy trainer on SCUBA holding a spare regulator a few feet away in case I panicked. I was still pretty creeped out my very first time as the water covered my head and I knew I had to let it completely fill the cabin before I unharnessed myself and wormed my way out. Even creepier the first time they made us do it with blackout flight helmets. Even though you think you would know, via gravity, which way is up, you don't.

The whole process of the dunker dropping into the water, turning upside down (by design) and filling with water, then coming to rest on the bottom, then me finding referencing points and finding my way out my designated door or window and getting to the surface was maybe 1.5 minutes, with me holding my breath about half that long*. I knew what was coming, knew I had rescue if I tapped out, and practiced a lot before my first class. Now think about the thieves in this situation with no training and no discipline. It would be hazardous for someone on SCUBA, in clear water, daylight, and no mud or other extraneous dangers to deal with them. That is if they didn't go full panic and breath in water immediately after the vehicle was flooded to open the doors.

*Try and hold your breath. Many people, in a totally relaxed state, can barely hold their breath for 30 seconds. You can certainly train yourself to hold it longer, but now add panic and exertion, then cut whatever your relaxed breath-hold state is in half. I'm betting the thieves breathed in water within 15 seconds of the car filling.


Here's an ASTC video to give you an idea of being trapped underwater (about halfway through the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRuNDA7qJBU

[Phyphor]

This should give you some idea as to what the cops were actually dealing with.

This is the car.

[Ben]

This should give you some idea as to what the cops were actually dealing with.

This is the car.

[img]http://s20.postimg.org/iuw3hfzwd/3_teen_car_1.jpg

[img]http://s20.postimg.org/b3fdivvr1/3_teen_car_2.jpg

Lets add getting tangled in the vegetation into the mix. Looks like there would be a good chance of having that crap move overhead and blocking your exit to air as well.

[roo_ster]

Nastier than I thought, what with the surface of the water covered in vegetation.

No way I would have gone into that as a kiddo running around Florida.

[Tuco]

I had a soil scsince type reply all typed and ready to send during the Saturday/Sunday APS mud fight.  Thought twice and deleted it.

Looking back, I'm grateful to have avoided the quagmire.

[KD5NRH]

This should give you some idea as to what the cops were actually dealing with.

This is the car.

Did they get a unicorn to hook up the winch?

Somebody was obviously able to get to it.  Even through the magic mud vacuum and past the sarlacc's uvula.

[wmenorr67]

Did they get a unicorn to hook up the winch?

Somebody was obviously able to get to it.  Even through the magic mud vacuum and past the sarlacc's uvula.

That somebody probably went in during daylight with a crew to back them up.  Still not faulting a couple of police officers for not risking their lives in the dark, in unknown waters, to rescue three hoodlums.

Were you born obtuse or do you have to work at it?

[cordex]

Were you born obtuse or do you have to work at it?

Seems like everything is easy, obvious and straightforward to KD5NRH, no matter how complex and nuanced those same things might appear to everyone else.

[Ben]

the Saturday/Sunday APS mud fight. 

Can we have one of those every weekend?  I think it would be awesome! I'll bring the beer. 

[Phyphor]

Did they get a unicorn to hook up the winch?

Somebody was obviously able to get to it.  Even through the magic mud vacuum and past the sarlacc's uvula.

Yes, they were.... Well past the time it took for those girls to die.

[KD5NRH]

That somebody probably went in during daylight with a crew to back them up.  Still not faulting a couple of police officers for not risking their lives in the dark, in unknown waters, to rescue three hoodlums.

Well, then maybe someday one of your kids will be accused of a crime and allowed to die without trial because somebody who voluntarily applied for a job with well-known risks didn't want to take one.

Only one of those kids definitely stole the car.  For all anyone knows, the others might have been too scared to do anything about it.

[lupinus]

Because someone probably in scuba gear, with a team to back them up if something got hairy, in daylight hours is totally the same thing as someone with no gear for the job, no training, in the dark.

Did you fall down and hit your head?


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

[wmenorr67]

Well, then maybe someday one of your kids will be accused of a crime and allowed to die without trial because somebody who voluntarily applied for a job with well-known risks didn't want to take one.

Only one of those kids definitely stole the car.  For all anyone knows, the others might have been too scared to do anything about it.

I know I have raised my children to not steal cars nor hang around those that are known to steal cars.  Did you not see the part where all three young ladies already had a record for stealing cars?

[dogmush]

Well, then maybe someday one of your kids will be accused of a crime and allowed to die without trial because somebody who voluntarily applied for a job with well-known risks didn't want to take one.

Only one of those kids definitely stole the car.  For all anyone knows, the others might have been too scared to do anything about it.

WTF?

There is no police department in the world that has "nighttime underwater rescue" in their job description as a voluntarily assumed risk.  That is definitely not one of the well known risks we pay cops to take.

[AJ Dual]

But... the cops always just dive in, head first on movies and TV!   

[Boomhauer]

Well, then maybe someday one of your kids will be accused of a crime and allowed to die without trial because somebody who voluntarily applied for a job with well-known risks didn't want to take one.

Only one of those kids definitely stole the car.  For all anyone knows, the others might have been too scared to do anything about it.

What. The. *expletive deleted*ck.

First of all, it's a job, not a suicide pact. Do we pay them to take some risks? Yes. Is this one of them? HELL *expletive deleted*ing NO. And if I had been on scene, I would have outright refused to go in. We firefighters didn't sign up for a suicide pact either.

Second of all, all three of the little deceased shits had records. This just ended their careers quite early, saving taxpayers a bundle of cash and future victims a lot of trouble.

[TommyGunn]

But... the cops always just dive in, head first on movies and TV!   

That was on "Walker, Texas Ranger."
Documentary TV that wasn't........