Astute commentary regarding the presidential election

[Fitz]

If "knowing what people are bitching about" is a valid metric, then Obama is a good president. He knows, but it's by design for him

[Angel Eyes]

Trump is where he is because Maximus, Commander of the Armies of the North, isn't around to run.

So Trump = Commodus?

Hmmm . . . where is Narcissus when we need him?

[MechAg94]

First, be careful listening to the leftist media propaganda with regard to Hilary winning.  I have heard newer polls are starting to show Trump beating Hilary as a lot of Democrats hate Hilary Clinton as much or more than some Republican dislike Trump.  I think most Republicans will end up voting for Trump anyway assuming Trump doesn't do something stupid. 

Second, I am not a big Trump fan, but I will take him with my concerns over Hilary Clinton who is a guaranteed terrible choice for President.  We KNOW she is a liar and a criminal who is out to destroy our rights.  I won't do anything that helps her win. 

Third, when I compare Trump to McCain and Romney who were the last two Republican candidates, I have to ask how Trump is really any worse than they are?  Romney is a weak moderate who failed to stand up and fight.  McCain (IMO) is a slimy establishment guy.  I think I might be willing to take Trump with his unknowns over those two. 

[Ron]

The so called "conservative" establishment claims to have principles and says some things are off the table, non-negotiable. They then negotiate poorly and end up violating their so called principles. And they wonder why they're hated and despised, not only by the left but now by the true right also?

Trump is not a conservative because nothing is really ever off the table. Reading the Playboy interviews from decades ago and just finally picking up and finishing "Art of the Deal" I have to say he has some conservative leanings about some issues, esp regarding nationalism and what it means to be an American. Trump is not and never will be what they call a movement conservative though. He is something of a pragmatist and also something of a problem solver.  

I'm afraid he has more hubris than Obama and if he gets elected he will make similar mistakes based on his believing he is the smartest guy in the room.

Still better than crooked Hillary  

 

[230RN]

^

I think I might be willing to take Trump with his unknowns over those two.

 

Or over Ms. Clinton.

That's what I was getting at and I'm surprised that people are still letting their emotions get in the way of making the best bet.

That's what makes losers in card games.  And not voting, like folding your cards, is a sure loss.

In a similar way, voting for unviable third-party candidates "on principle" is akin to "drawing to an inside straight."

Would be nice to get that one card, but let's face it...

I can't understand why people don't "get" that.

I don't want to overdo the card game analogy, but that's the simplest and most "universal" way to explain why it sure as hell looks like I'm going to vote for Trump, if it goes that far.

Terry, 230RN

[makattak]

And folding, like not voting, is a sure loss. 

Errr... what?

http://the-econoclast.blogspot.com/2005/01/rational-non-voter.html

The likelihood that your vote will have any effect on the outcome is miniscule. "Not voting" is ZERO loss. You (me, them, everybody) is unlikely to have any effect on the vote from our voting or refraining from voting.

So feel free to vote however you wish!

[roo_ster]

^  

Or over Ms. Clinton.

That's what I was getting at and I'm surprised that people are still letting their emotions get in the way of making the best bet.

That's what makes losers in card games.  And folding, like not voting, is a sure loss.  And voting for unviable candidates "on principle" is akin to "drawing to an inside straight."

Would be nice to get that one card, but let's face it...

I can't understand why people don't "get" that.

Terry, 230RN

Still too much butthurt, especially in the face of their numerous blown predictions and their florid derision of trump supporters. 

Not too many folk have it in them to man up and ally with someone after they spat in his face and talked shinola about him for months.  Better to go off and vote meaningless third party while claiming moral victory than admit the mouth breathers were right, they won, that trump is no worse than any gop candidate since ghwb, and that trump is much preferable to clinton.

[230RN]

^

Not too many folk have it in them to man up and ally with someone after they spat in his face and talked shinola about him for months.

You got that right.  It would be amusing if it weren't potentially so tragic.

And not voting at all in "protest."  Holy crap.  How "astute" is that?

The "Party of Hillary Clinton" is going to organize to get every single voter to the polls if they have to lead them there by hooking their index fingers in their nostrils and dragging them there.

Even though that individual's vote has "miniscule" effect.

Gee, maybe the "Party of Hillary Clinton" is smarter than we are anyhow.

Like it or not, it's still a numbers game, which is why (it is rumored) college students vote both in their home state and in their out-of-state college residences.

Maybe your one single vote can cancel out one of those illegal votes.

Or maybe one of those corpses who vote up Chicago way.

Ya think?

Terry

[Perd Hapley]

Better to go off and vote meaningless third party while claiming moral victory than admit the mouth breathers were right, they won, that trump is no worse than any gop candidate since ghwb, and that trump is much preferable to clinton.

Right? No. More righter than the Dem. candidate, yes.

I think most Republicans will end up voting for Trump anyway assuming Trump doesn't do something stupid. 

[makattak]

^
You got that right.  It would be amusing if it weren't potentially so tragic.

And not voting at all in "protest."  Holy crap.  How "astute" is that?

The "Party of Hillary Clinton" is going to organize to get every single voter to the polls if they have to lead them there by hooking their index fingers in their nostrils and dragging them there.

Even though that individual's vote has "miniscule" effect.

Gee, maybe the "Party of Hillary Clinton" is smarter than we are anyhow.

Like it or not, it's still a numbers game, which is why (it is rumored) college students vote both in their home state and in their out-of-state college residences.

Maybe your one single vote can cancel out one of those illegal votes.

Or maybe one of those corpses who vote up Chicago way.

Ya think?

Terry

So, what you're saying is that without my single vote, Trump is going to lose the election? And with it, he's going to win?

[roo_ster]

So, what you're saying is that without my single vote, Trump is going to lose the election? And with it, he's going to win?

The content of my post in no way addressed the probabilities of any one vote, to include yours, influencing the outcome of an election.  But you knew that already.

Right? No. More righter than the Dem. candidate, yes.

For which value of right?  It appears they were right in asserting Trump could win the GOP nomination.  He ended up beating most the field like a drum and Cruz like a red-headed step-child.  And that he would be competitive with Clinton.  Were they right in their faith that Trump can make America suck less?  To be determined.

[230RN]

So, what you're saying is that without my single vote, Trump is going to lose the election? And with it, he's going to win?

It does not follow, and putting nonexistent words in my mouth.

You can do better than that, despite the fact that you couched it as questions.

What I am saying is that your attitude, spread over dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of voters will probably put Ms. Clinton in that office.

Fold, then.  

Give up.

"...go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms."

And hopefully, there will be enough others to carry on the fight against Ms. Clinton's (as a presumptive candidate) winning.

Terry, 230RN

REF:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/31693.Samuel_Adams

[makattak]

It does not follow, and putting nonexistent words in my mouth.

You can do better than that, despite the fact that you couched it as questions.

What I am saying is that your attitude, spread over dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of voters will probably put Ms. Clinton in that office.

Fold, then. 

Give up.

"...go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms."

And hopefully, there will be enough others to carry on the fight against Ms. Clinton's (as a presumptive candidate) winning.

Terry, 230RN

REF:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/31693.Samuel_Adams

That's fine. But changing my attitude has absolutely no effect on the other citizens, does it?

And, I'm not giving up. I just cannot vote for the snake-oil salesman that I have no ability to vet.

It's rolling the dice.

As my "rolling the dice" will have no effect on the outcome, I'm abstaining this time. Should he win and provide some mechanism by which I CAN judge him, I may be able to vote for him next time.

[MechAg94]

That's fine. But changing my attitude has absolutely no effect on the other citizens, does it?

And, I'm not giving up. I just cannot vote for the snake-oil salesman that I have no ability to vet.

It's rolling the dice.

As my "rolling the dice" will have no effect on the outcome, I'm abstaining this time. Should he win and provide some mechanism by which I CAN judge him, I may be able to vote for him next time.

Your rolling the dice does have an affect on the outcome.  You just have to look at it in terms of lots more people having the same idea as you.  If 3 million potential R voters decide not to vote, the other side wins.  IMO, convincing the potential base of voters to come out and vote has become a major part of this election.  This is what I meant by Trump doing something stupid.  If he is smart, then he will try to convince all those Cruz voters and others that he is worth your vote.  Romney had this same problem.  He chose poorly and came out the loser. 

The same thing is happening on the Democrat side as well.  Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.  A whole lot of Bernie supporters are pissed that their delegate system is rigged and than Hilary is a self serving crook.  There is no guarantee Hilary will get a good voter turnout either.

[grampster]

What a joy it would be if every single ballot was marked None Of The Above.

[Firethorn]

In a similar way, voting for unviable third-party candidates "on principle" is akin to "drawing to an inside straight."

I'll have to see, but all signs point to a secure Trump victory for my state, I'm voting for Gary Johnson.

[dogmush]

I am entertained that one of us is voting for the candidate that we genuinely believe will be the best president, and actively trying to get others to do the same, while the other is voting for the POS being served to them by the establishment that they dislike the least.

But I'm the one giving up.


Additionally, we (third party voters) have gotten this very same speech every four years for as long as I've been able to vote.  Probably longer.  "THIS election is the end, it's too important to waste on third party." In voting for the lesser you have actively incentivised the two major parties putting forward crap.  Perhaps if you had listened to us 20-30 years ago, we'd have had two decades of crap presidents and built a viable alternative.  As opposed to where we are now, two decades* of crap presidents with no alternative in sight.

But whatever, keep voting for the same thing**, and bemoaning when it fails like some sad caricature of a trailer park girlfriend that is in the ER for the fifth time.  




*At least

**Big government, Anti Liberty Authoritarians.  Whatever else Mr. Trump may be, he is a man that loves using the power of government to serve his ends.

[230RN]

And, I'm not giving up. I just cannot vote for the snake-oil salesman that I have no ability to vet.

I understand your emotion, but not your logic.

And the "vetting" for the presumptive opposing candidate has already been done, even if not conclusively or judicially.  Yet.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men [or bluestarlizzard :)] to do nothing."

Go home in peace.

Y'know, I stood back through most of the candidate selection process, not saying much.

I only offered my insight into his change from that New York City strong anti-gun attitude, since I lived in his neighborhood as well, and had the same enlightenment when I "saw the elephant" by coming out to Colorado.

You want to self-justify your not voting?  Fine.

Others want to self-justify their --yes --throwing away their vote?  Fine

But your counsels are not needed.

Terry, 230RN

[grampster]

I'm keenly interested in the fireworks between the end of both conventions to election day.  Maybe that's when we'll see what the bear is doing in the buckwheat. 

I am convinced that Hillary is an absolute danger to the Republic, not only because she is corrupt, but that there are many corrupt backers both in and out of the government, combined with the ignorance, fantasy, and emotionalism of a good deal of the general public.

Trump reminds me of a caricature from Saturday Night Live who will actually hold the red button.

[MikeB]

...
Trump reminds me of a caricature from Saturday Night Live who will actually hold the red button.

The president (no matter who is elected) can not just order Nukes to be launched (red button). It just doesn't work that way. Others need to agree with the decision of any president before a launch can happen.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I find this argument (as well as all the ones past and all the ones that will be in the future) to be somewhat silly.

Voting is a duty, but, from a more philosophical standpoint, the real duty of voting isn't the actual casting of a ballot, but the thoughtful and deliberate thinking required in the making of a choice.
and I'm pretty sure everyone on this board is being thoughtful and very deliberate in that choice, especially this spin on the merry go round.

I don't see that anyone who chooses not to vote in protest as being in the same category as the idjits who are just to lazy to make time to go to the polls and certainly better than the idjits who are not thoughtful, deliberate or even cognizant of what is going on who still come out to the polls every four freeking years.

While, personally, I wish you all would vote (even if it's just "none of the above") because I think the protest no vote doesn't express your displeasure to the people you are displeased with, I certainly do think you have the right and even the duty to abstain if that is what your conscience dictates.


(also, 'conscience' is a stupid word and impossible for people who need words to be spelled like they sound)

[grampster]

Ahhh, heck.  I've just been kidding.   ALL HAIL HILLARY...     Never mind, just kidding again.

[HankB]

To the third-party voters and non-voters who've made a personal decision to exercise their inarguable right NOT vote for flawed GOP candidates in the last two elections.

Thank you for Obama - and Obamacare.

Thank you for SCOTUS justice Sonia Sotomayor.

Thank you for SCOTUS justice Elena Kagan.

Thank you for an 18 trillion dollar national debt, de facto amnesty for illegal aliens, use of the IRS as a weapon against conservative groups, a path to a nuke for Iran, the rise of ISIS . . . and more.

Perhaps we'll be thanking you for another President Clinton next year.

Now let the indignation begin.

 

[BlueStarLizzard]

To the third-party voters and non-voters who've made a personal decision to exercise their inarguable right NOT vote for flawed GOP candidates in the last two elections.

Thank you for Obama - and Obamacare.

Thank you for SCOTUS justice Sonia Sotomayor.

Thank you for SCOTUS justice Elena Kagan.

Thank you for an 18 trillion dollar national debt, de facto amnesty for illegal aliens, use of the IRS as a weapon against conservative groups, a path to a nuke for Iran, the rise of ISIS . . . and more.

Perhaps we'll be thanking you for another President Clinton next year.

Now let the indignation begin.

 

and thank you for alienating us further so we are even less inclined to jump on your bandwagon.

We are all in this together. 

[MechAg94]

Well, I would agree with the commentary on the SCOTUS since the next President will likely nominate 2 or 3 (one in the first year).  If Hilary nominates them, I have a feeling none of her nominees would be pro-gun or respect the 2nd amendment. 

Of course, there is no guarantee who Trump will nominate either, but at least there is a better chance.