Author Topic: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test  (Read 11207 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2016, 03:52:49 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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KD5NRH

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Re:
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2016, 04:02:24 PM »
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/study-finds-100-percent-increase-in-fatal-pot-related-crashes-in-colorado

IMO, another key reason there needs to be a "how much is MJ currently impairing this person" test.  It would also need to be quick and easy enough to use in a traffic stop.  (Or at least enough so to be PC to haul them over to the hospital for a more reliable test, as with alcohol by blood draw.)  Then treat it the same as alcohol.  Then fix the DUI laws the way they've needed to be fixed all along.  (.08-.11 first offense ticket, .12-.20 jail time, >.20 lots of mandatory jail time, 10 year minimum license revocation, etc.  Most truly "drunk driving" wrecks involve drivers well over .12 from what I've seen, but legislators haven't been willing to go to serious penalties because they don't want to crush the skinny guy who's at .09 after a couple beers with dinner and got popped for failing to signal a turn.  Figuring MJ equivalents would depend on what the marker for current impairment ends up being.)

My problem with "MJ related" wreck statistics is that unless the driver survives and says he was baked, or there's too much smoke in the car to find the driver, they don't really know if he was stoned right then, or had spent the last three weeks high as a kite, then let it all clear his system for 2-3 days before driving.  I'm thoroughly unconvinced that they couldn't find a way to test current impairment if they hadn't had years of the disincentive of "yes or no sometime in the last month" being "good enough."

Firethorn

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Re:
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2016, 04:24:07 PM »
Then fix the DUI laws the way they've needed to be fixed all along.  (.08-.11 first offense ticket, .12-.20 jail time, >.20 lots of mandatory jail time, 10 year minimum license revocation, etc.  Most truly "drunk driving" wrecks involve drivers well over .12 from what I've seen, but legislators haven't been willing to go to serious penalties because they don't want to crush the skinny guy who's at .09 after a couple beers with dinner and got popped for failing to signal a turn.  Figuring MJ equivalents would depend on what the marker for current impairment ends up being.)

Many states have been doing this with 'super DUI' laws that make it 'extra illegal' to be driving around with an extremely high BAC. 

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My problem with "MJ related" wreck statistics is that unless the driver survives and says he was baked, or there's too much smoke in the car to find the driver, they don't really know if he was stoned right then, or had spent the last three weeks high as a kite, then let it all clear his system for 2-3 days before driving.

One problem I've read is that MJ can still be affecting you even if you're not high long after your use - whether this is negative for driving requires more testing.

KD5NRH

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Re:
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2016, 04:56:37 PM »
Many states have been doing this with 'super DUI' laws that make it 'extra illegal' to be driving around with an extremely high BAC.

Great.  Know which ones off the top of your head?  I'd love to send samples to my legislators.

Firethorn

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Re:
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2016, 05:02:42 PM »
Great.  Know which ones off the top of your head?  I'd love to send samples to my legislators.

Ohio has special rules kick in at .17
Arizona has "super-extreme" at .20+ - http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2014/07/28/suns-player-pj-tucker-dui-arrest/13299361/
Alabama "super drunk" - over .15 = double penalties.  http://www.sreeravilaw.com/dui/implied-consent-law/
A lot of the names sounds like gas station soda cup namings.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 05:16:56 PM by Firethorn »

KD5NRH

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Re:
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2016, 06:13:56 PM »
Arizona has "super-extreme" at .20+ - http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2014/07/28/suns-player-pj-tucker-dui-arrest/13299361/

Good criteria. Penalties are still a bit pathetic, though.  45 days in the can and a 90 day license suspension minimum, plus $500 fine and $2,250 "additional assessments" for "super extreme."  Not hard to rack those fine amounts up with a few stone cold sober  5-10 over speeding tickets.  I'd rather see something like 90-180 days jail and 1-10 year mandatory license revocation for first offense over .20.  That seems to be about what they're doing for a second offense within 7 years.  Get truly draconian on second offense and/or driving with a license revoked for DUI.

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Alabama "super drunk" - over .15 = double penalties.  http://www.sreeravilaw.com/dui/implied-consent-law/

Still kind of tame; the base jail time for second offense DUI is only 5 days, so 10 days if you're "super drunk."  No minimum on first offense, though their license suspension times are pretty good.

Balog

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2016, 06:14:54 PM »
So, the war on drugs has ended in your state since y'all legalized pot?  Cool.  And unexpected, given the news articles such as the following that still come from that corner of the USA:
http://q13fox.com/2016/03/09/dea-raids-suspected-fentanyl-lab-in-south-seattle-neighborhood-its-50-times-more-potent-than-heroin-and-its-a-hundred-times-more-potent-than-morphine/
http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/king-county-detectives-lead-bust-of-high-level-drug-ring/249577303

As for the federal disability and anti-discrimination programs, I would expect those changes only when pot is legalized at the national level, especially if folk follow mtnbkr's alcohol ~ pot analogy. 

Of course employers up there are not nearly as sanguine as many on this board as to the knock-on effects of legalization:
http://www.westsoundworkforce.com/what-washington-state-marijuana-legalization-means-for-employers/


The abuse of the 2A didn't end when WA repealed its ban on suppressors and SBR's, but it was a step in the right direction.
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MechAg94

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Re:
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2016, 06:50:38 PM »
IMO, another key reason there needs to be a "how much is MJ currently impairing this person" test.  It would also need to be quick and easy enough to use in a traffic stop.  (Or at least enough so to be PC to haul them over to the hospital for a more reliable test, as with alcohol by blood draw.)  Then treat it the same as alcohol.  Then fix the DUI laws the way they've needed to be fixed all along.  (.08-.11 first offense ticket, .12-.20 jail time, >.20 lots of mandatory jail time, 10 year minimum license revocation, etc.  Most truly "drunk driving" wrecks involve drivers well over .12 from what I've seen, but legislators haven't been willing to go to serious penalties because they don't want to crush the skinny guy who's at .09 after a couple beers with dinner and got popped for failing to signal a turn.  Figuring MJ equivalents would depend on what the marker for current impairment ends up being.)

My problem with "MJ related" wreck statistics is that unless the driver survives and says he was baked, or there's too much smoke in the car to find the driver, they don't really know if he was stoned right then, or had spent the last three weeks high as a kite, then let it all clear his system for 2-3 days before driving.  I'm thoroughly unconvinced that they couldn't find a way to test current impairment if they hadn't had years of the disincentive of "yes or no sometime in the last month" being "good enough."
I am right there with you.  I would think that making a low BAC a minor offense would encourage more people to go ahead and blow in the breathalyzer and not contest those offenses.  When a DUI is a potential felony even for the low BAC, people are encouraged to hire lawyers from the beginning. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

KD5NRH

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Re:
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2016, 10:04:42 AM »
I am right there with you.  I would think that making a low BAC a minor offense would encourage more people to go ahead and blow in the breathalyzer and not contest those offenses.  When a DUI is a potential felony even for the low BAC, people are encouraged to hire lawyers from the beginning.

To me, it's more a matter of the guy who had one too many isn't usually the one pinballing off parked cars for miles or plowing into a crowd.  I'm good with him facing a fine, maybe a night in jail to sober up and remember not to do it again, but he really shouldn't be facing even similar penalties to the one who got snot slinging drunk and drove because he couldn't walk.  I want the penalties through the roof for the latter, especially repeat offenders, without destroying the former.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2016, 11:50:46 AM »
How many near misses have all you old fart had? Where a split second is all that saved you.

Those aren't misses sometimes when you are "just a lil bit buzzed"
Many a person escapes detection.  For everyone caught figure 3 slide.

On the personal anecdote level I had 2 pretty good wrecks related to pot before I even got high. Both of em first thing in am. Was driving cab had not yet picked up first fare and blew through lights while looking down for "just a second" to scoop a bowl full outa bag in my lap. Was just luck and God's grace no one was seriously hurt. And the second wreck? I was poster child for stoner. "I'm cool man last time was just a fluke"
FYI coming to a stop in an intersection in front of precinct house after T boning a week old Volvo station wagon with prime bud scattered all over the front seat and dash is a buzzkill. But not nearly as bad as looking at the Volvo ripped open motor 1/2 outa engine compartment and seeing the top of a child seat showing over the edge of door facing you and thinking you killed a kid.


And no I did not stop for another 10 years. I was special like that

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2016, 12:01:20 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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KD5NRH

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Re:
« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2016, 12:05:50 PM »
How many near misses have all you old fart had? Where a split second is all that saved you.

Those aren't misses sometimes when you are "just a lil bit buzzed"

They're also not misses when you're a bit sleepy, eating a burrito or putting on makeup.  Nor, for that matter when you're just a few years late hanging up the keys, but we don't treat those like a .20BAC either.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2016, 12:27:57 PM »
They're also not misses when you're a bit sleepy, eating a burrito or putting on makeup.  Nor, for that matter when you're just a few years late hanging up the keys, but we don't treat those like a .20BAC either.
We don't see those as a deliberate decision to lower our skills and then use those skills in a way that threatens innocents.
Maybe we should. We already ding truck drivers for not enough rest


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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KD5NRH

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2016, 12:57:49 PM »
We don't see those as a deliberate decision to lower our skills and then use those skills in a way that threatens innocents.

I doubt many drunks, at any BAC, are really doing it with the intent of becoming a crappy driver before they get on the road.  If I were assigning a culpable mental state using Texas' definitions, I'd call it either reckless or knowing in most cases, depending on circumstances.  Mostly reckless at first offense, pretty much always knowing at subsequent ones.
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(b)  A person acts knowingly, or with knowledge, with respect to the nature of his conduct or to circumstances surrounding his conduct when he is aware of the nature of his conduct or that the circumstances exist.  A person acts knowingly, or with knowledge, with respect to a result of his conduct when he is aware that his conduct is reasonably certain to cause the result.
(c)  A person acts recklessly, or is reckless, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he is aware of but consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur.  The risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint.

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Maybe we should. We already ding truck drivers for not enough rest

No maybe about it.  The victims of a driver impaired by fatigue or age are just as injured or dead as those of a driver behaving the same way because he's impaired by alcohol.

Firethorn

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2016, 01:23:23 PM »
With the recently increasing amount of active accident avoidance systems in automobiles I'd give it another 15 years before it's a moot issue - and that's mostly just to finish their spread to all models and get most of the old vehicles off the road.

lupinus

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2016, 01:25:54 PM »
With the recently increasing amount of active accident avoidance systems in automobiles I'd give it another 15 years before it's a moot issue - and that's mostly just to finish their spread to all models and get most of the old vehicles off the road.
You're far more optimistic than I am.

Give up the revenue and excuse for random road blocks? Not happening for a little thing like active avoidance systems.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Firethorn

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2016, 01:30:16 PM »
You're far more optimistic than I am.

Give up the revenue and excuse for random road blocks? Not happening for a little thing like active avoidance systems.

They aren't going to have the choice when self-drivers come out, and all the drunks, druggies, soccer moms*, and such will force changes to the laws.

*Who won't have to drive their snowflakes to school anymore!

lupinus

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #93 on: May 24, 2016, 01:32:39 PM »
They aren't going to have the choice when self-drivers come out, and all the drunks, druggies, soccer moms*, and such will force changes to the laws.

*Who won't have to drive their snowflakes to school anymore!
I won't hold my breath.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Firethorn

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2016, 01:36:36 PM »
I won't hold my breath.

...What makes you think I could hold my breath for 15 years in the first place...   :rofl:


KD5NRH

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2016, 01:38:58 PM »
With the recently increasing amount of active accident avoidance systems in automobiles I'd give it another 15 years before it's a moot issue - and that's mostly just to finish their spread to all models and get most of the old vehicles off the road.

Even then, who wants the liability of coding the decisions when it has to choose between hitting a cyclist who will almost certainly die but with little threat to the occupants of its own vehicle, nailing the back end of a pickup at higher risk to its own occupants, but lower overall risk of serious injury or death, or running off the road, which could be anything from a rough stop in the ditch to flying off a cliff?

IMO, liability concerns like that will delay widespread self-driving cars for decades.  Right now, collision avoidance isn't really making complex decisions, just hitting the brakes and/or aiming for an empty chunk of road.  AFAICT, they count all obstacles as completely equal.  Fully taking control of the car requires a lot more complexity.  Then you have the ones (including legislators) who just can't handle the delay of a car that always stops fully at a stop sign even when there's not a cop in sight, refuses to cut off other traffic, etc.

Firethorn

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #96 on: May 24, 2016, 01:46:37 PM »
Even then, who wants the liability of coding the decisions when it has to choose between hitting a cyclist who will almost certainly die but with little threat to the occupants of its own vehicle, nailing the back end of a pickup at higher risk to its own occupants, but lower overall risk of serious injury or death, or running off the road, which could be anything from a rough stop in the ditch to flying off a cliff?

Actually, it turns out to be a false premise.  Those doing the studies and running the simulations have found that one answer is always the correct solution when a collision is imminent:  Hit the brakes. 

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IMO, liability concerns like that will delay widespread self-driving cars for decades.  Right now, collision avoidance isn't really making complex decisions, just hitting the brakes and/or aiming for an empty chunk of road.

The way it's shaping up, pathfinding is the bigger concern, not liability.  Self driving cars still lack the ability to get you from point A to point B in an efficient fashion without becoming stuck or 'confused', needing human assistance to tell it which way to go.

Safety they've actually had nailed for a while.  Because guess what?  Collision avoidance actually isn't about complex decisions, hitting the brakes and aiming for an empty chunk of road is relatively easy, and the 100% attention paid makes them better than humans, even if you're part of the 90% of drivers that think they're in the top 50%.

As for the legislators, do you think that they'll be able to prevent themselves from mandating self-drivers for DUI convicts, like they mandate interlocks now?  That the soccer moms won't put Johnny into a self driver for his first car for the safety and insurance cut?

MechAg94

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #97 on: May 24, 2016, 02:17:26 PM »
I doubt many drunks, at any BAC, are really doing it with the intent of becoming a crappy driver before they get on the road.  If I were assigning a culpable mental state using Texas' definitions, I'd call it either reckless or knowing in most cases, depending on circumstances.  Mostly reckless at first offense, pretty much always knowing at subsequent ones.
No maybe about it.  The victims of a driver impaired by fatigue or age are just as injured or dead as those of a driver behaving the same way because he's impaired by alcohol.
Mothers Against Distracted Driving is not nearly as powerful as Mothers Against Drunk Driving.  They also got the domain name first. 
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KD5NRH

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #98 on: May 24, 2016, 04:17:20 PM »
Actually, it turns out to be a false premise.  Those doing the studies and running the simulations have found that one answer is always the correct solution when a collision is imminent:  Hit the brakes.

Velocity isn't binary.  If you had 75-0 instantaneous brakes/tires, the rest of the car would rip off and continue forward.  It also doesn't account for "oops, this guy is about to run the red light and at my current speed, he's going to hit my quarter panel."  Slow down in that situation, and the collision becomes worse.

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Safety they've actually had nailed for a while.  Because guess what?  Collision avoidance actually isn't about complex decisions, hitting the brakes and aiming for an empty chunk of road is relatively easy, and the 100% attention paid makes them better than humans, even if you're part of the 90% of drivers that think they're in the top 50%.

Sometimes there's no empty chunk of road within the handling capability of the car (oops; autodrive needs to track that, which means either testing it from time to time with a skid or actually measuring tire wear, road surface, etc.) and straight line braking won't happen quickly enough to completely avoid a collision either.  I've been lucky, but I know plenty of people who have had to make a choice between hitting a parked car or the person who just stepped out from between the cars.  Straight line braking would hit the person.

Mothers Against Distracted Driving is not nearly as powerful as Mothers Against Drunk Driving.  They also got the domain name first.

How about we start IPADD: Intelligent People Against Dumbasses Driving?

Firethorn

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #99 on: May 24, 2016, 05:28:09 PM »
Velocity isn't binary.  If you had 75-0 instantaneous brakes/tires, the rest of the car would rip off and continue forward.

Never said it was.

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  It also doesn't account for "oops, this guy is about to run the red light and at my current speed, he's going to hit my quarter panel."  Slow down in that situation, and the collision becomes worse.

That's not the robotic car hitting something though, that's something hitting the robotic car.  Also, most humans fail in such a scenario as well.

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Sometimes there's no empty chunk of road within the handling capability of the car (oops; autodrive needs to track that, which means either testing it from time to time with a skid or actually measuring tire wear, road surface, etc.) and straight line braking won't happen quickly enough to completely avoid a collision either.  I've been lucky, but I know plenty of people who have had to make a choice between hitting a parked car or the person who just stepped out from between the cars.  Straight line braking would hit the person.

And what if there's a little kid behind the car that gets crushed because you hit the car?

You're missing a small, but crucial little trick.  It takes a human approximately 1/2 second to see the situation and slam on the brakes.  For the computer drivers, this is in the milliseconds. 

The end result is that, even with the exact same braking power and system, the computer stops much quicker.

So it eliminates the 'hit the pedestrian or the car' question by simply stopping quicker so it doesn't have to hit either.