NYPD checking ammo after knifeman’s jacket stops cops’ bullets

[Fly320s]

How is this possible? It would seem it's only possible if the JHP round isn't comparable to the FMJ round in bullet weight, muzzle velocity, or both.

Generally speaking, HP ammo has a higher muzzle velocity than FMJ ammo of the same weight.  First, the extra velocity is wanted to help the HP ammo expand.  Second, most FMJ ammo is practice ammo, not designed or meant for doing maximum damage in tissue, so it isn't loaded as hot.

I made many generalizations, which is intentional.  No ammo performs the same in every case.

[roo_ster]

I made many generalizations, which is intentional.  No ammo performs the same in every case.

No, no, no.  Unacceptable.  You must document each and every claim, lest Spergthulu deign to notice this thread, slither on by, dutifully note every possible exception, completely missing the main point, whilst driving you insane.

[Ben]

Barring valid research to the contrary, I tend to listen to what Fly320s says on this subject. I think he has taken more defensive and combat firearms courses than most of the rest of us combined. He has been able to pick the brains of the real deal BTDT guys. You don't have to follow his advice (I'm still not giving up my 1911s   ) but we should recognize where it's coming from.

On the OP, the "bouncing bullets" theory is interesting, especially given all the examples we've seen of NYC cops emptying their pistols with only one or two rounds hitting the intended target.  I recall at least one example of their ricochet rounds injuring innocent bystanders.

[MechAg94]

Barring valid research to the contrary, I tend to listen to what Fly320s says on this subject. I think he has taken more defensive and combat firearms courses than most of the rest of us combined. He has been able to pick the brains of the real deal BTDT guys. You don't have to follow his advice (I'm still not giving up my 1911s   ) but we should recognize where it's coming from.

On the OP, the "bouncing bullets" theory is interesting, especially given all the examples we've seen of NYC cops emptying their pistols with only one or two rounds hitting the intended target.  I recall at least one example of their ricochet rounds injuring innocent bystanders.

An innocent bystander was injured in this incident also.

The bouncing bullet idea was just one possibility for lack of penetration.  Apparently, this was all based on observation at the scene there may be more to it.

[Perd Hapley]

Barring valid research to the contrary, I tend to listen to what Fly320s says on this subject. I think he has taken more defensive and combat firearms courses than most of the rest of us combined. He has been able to pick the brains of the real deal BTDT guys. You don't have to follow his advice (I'm still not giving up my 1911s   ) but we should recognize where it's coming from.

Why should I listen to him, when I can just trust the operators at Extreme Shock? I only want the very best ammunition in my Judge.

[Hawkmoon]

Generally speaking, HP ammo has a higher muzzle velocity than FMJ ammo of the same weight.  First, the extra velocity is wanted to help the HP ammo expand.  Second, most FMJ ammo is practice ammo, not designed or meant for doing maximum damage in tissue, so it isn't loaded as hot.

I made many generalizations, which is intentional.  No ammo performs the same in every case.

This now begins to make sense, but it's based on a non-equal comparison. Obviously, a FMJ bullet propelled at +P-type velocities will also penetrate farther than the same bullet propelled at "standard" velocity by a standard powder charge. You're involving the entire design of the cartridge, not doing a straight-up comparison of JHP vs. FMJ.

[brimic]

Barring valid research to the contrary, I tend to listen to what Fly320s says on this subject. I think he has taken more defensive and combat firearms courses than most of the rest of us combined. He has been able to pick the brains of the real deal BTDT guys. You don't have to follow his advice (I'm still not giving up my 1911s   ) but we should recognize where it's coming from.

On the OP, the "bouncing bullets" theory is interesting, especially given all the examples we've seen of NYC cops emptying their pistols with only one or two rounds hitting the intended target.  I recall at least one example of their ricochet rounds injuring innocent bystanders.

+1
I don't see anything that he's written on this thread that I don't agree with 100%.

[seeker_two]

Seen quite a few Gold Dot failures on youtube.  .38spl & .38spl+P most of them, IIRC.  Surprised the heck outta me, especially since the cavity was quite generous.

FTR, I have no problem going hardball in my .45ACP pistols and it is my first choice for my AMT DAOBU in .45ACP.  My go-to load in .45ACP is Rem Golden Saber 230gr.  Bonded or otherwise.  And I am happy with WC/SWC in revos, though if a quality HP shoots POI/POA that is fine, too.

It's hard to find a good expanding JHP in .38Spl....especially in a snub. I carried 158gr. SWCHP in mine, but I think I'd have been just as good carrying a full wadcutter load.

Only reason I carry JHP in anything is to mitigate overpenetration. All the ER docs & ME's I've read say there is little difference in the damage done by JHP & FMJ rounds.

[Perd Hapley]

 

[230RN]

....

[KD5NRH]

Seen quite a few Gold Dot failures on youtube.  .38spl & .38spl+P most of them, IIRC.  Surprised the heck outta me, especially since the cavity was quite generous.

Back when I had a supply of cheap cream cheese for ballistic testing, I ran some .38+P Gold Dots through a 2" snub.  Yes, a few of them came apart, but the wound channel was still pretty darn nasty.  .357 Gold Dots tended to spray a mess around to the point of making it hard to tell what happened beyond "well, pretty sure he'd be hurting bad."

These were all the old "flying ashtray" profile, too.  By the time I got some newer ones with the more dished hollow, my cheese supply was gone.

[roo_ster]

Back when I had a supply of cheap cream cheese for ballistic testing, I ran some .38+P Gold Dots through a 2" snub.  Yes, a few of them came apart, but the wound channel was still pretty darn nasty.  .357 Gold Dots tended to spray a mess around to the point of making it hard to tell what happened beyond "well, pretty sure he'd be hurting bad."

These were all the old "flying ashtray" profile, too.  By the time I got some newer ones with the more dished hollow, my cheese supply was gone.

I should have been more clear.  By failure, I meant failure to expand appreciably.  The other failure it only failure if htey don;t track straight and penetrate enough (for different values of enough).

[Perd Hapley]

By the time I got some newer ones with the more dished hollow, my cheese supply was gone.

[T.O.M.]

Just saw this video. Guy testing the 9mm Goldl Dot ammo on a Carhart jacket, with predictable results.  Same for .380.  Same for .22.

https://www.full30.com/video/0a8d2c199825b98f6fb4052c7a37acb4

It's either bad ammunition or something not quite as it appears. 

[Fly320s]

Just saw this video. Guy testing the 9mm Goldl Dot ammo on a Carhart jacket, with predictable results.  Same for .380.  Same for .22.

https://www.full30.com/video/0a8d2c199825b98f6fb4052c7a37acb4

It's either bad ammunition or something not quite as it appears. 

Good video.  Thanks.

[MechAg94]

Just saw this video. Guy testing the 9mm Goldl Dot ammo on a Carhart jacket, with predictable results.  Same for .380.  Same for .22.

https://www.full30.com/video/0a8d2c199825b98f6fb4052c7a37acb4

It's either bad ammunition or something not quite as it appears. 

That explains it.  They fired through an unmentioned bystander to hit the guy and his jacket only stopped the rounds after going through a bystander.