Ohio may use nitrogen for executions

[Firethorn]

So they only hire people or contractors with common sense.  That is pretty impressive hiring skills.   

We are not supposed to use air tools with nitrogen, but that doesn't mean the mechanics don't have a fitting with an oiler that fits the nitrogen hoses.  Thankfully, our two mechanics are both really good workers.

If they have an oiler that fits it, is the prohibition because the nitrogen line is way more expensive?

[MechAg94]

I think it is because they might take it into a confined space without thinking about it being nitrogen and not air.  I don't think our guys would knowingly do that, but people make mistakes when they are in a hurry or tired.  For us, the cost of the hoses is not an issue.  We have around 20 nitrogen hoses (200 psig max) and our rules require we replace them every two years.  Same with steam hoses.


Example:  I was at a site (not involved) where a confined space was done to weld something on an aluminum pipe inside a vessel.  Only one entry/exit.  The weld was about 4 feet below the entry.  Space was cleared and declared safe to work.  However, weld was using argon purge gas and no one accounted for it.  If there had been a little ventilation it wouldn't have been an issue.  The welder started welding and kept standing up because he felt dizzy.  He would feel fine after standing up a little (head out of hole).  The entry supervisor was seeing his O2 meter alarm, but thought it was plugging with insulation.  The welder finally passed out and was pulled out of the hole.  Everyone was okay and the problem was realized.  The weld was finished a few days later with supplied breathing air.  The same thing could have happened if someone was going in to pull bolts on a flange.  In hindsight, pretty much any welding creates non-breathable gases and the job shouldn't have happened without ventilation or breathing air.

The cost of an incident can be huge for a company.  Most of our safety rules are really designed to slow everything down and make multiple people take a look at what is happening.  Almost every safety incident is usually a result of multiple failures that line up perfectly to cause an incident.  Each failure/shortcut/mistake would not cause a problem individually.  But taken together, someone can get killed.  That is usually how things happen.  The same shortcut that a guy does a 1000 times with no issues kills someone on number 1001 because other people were also taking shortcuts and thought no one else was.

[just Warren]

So is what I'm seeing here from this derail is that we offer the condemned jobs in poorly ventilated areas where all the gas feeds use a common style fitting?

[MechAg94]

So is what I'm seeing here from this derail is that we offer the condemned jobs in poorly ventilated areas where all the gas feeds use a common style fitting?

And don't label the hose connections so they have to guess which is which. 

Most jobs rarely use this stuff in confined spaces.  Those just offer good examples.  The chemical industry generally puts a big emphasis on safety because they have to.  Most all the rules came about because someone died. 

[Firethorn]

Most jobs rarely use this stuff in confined spaces.  Those just offer good examples.  The chemical industry generally puts a big emphasis on safety because they have to.  Most all the rules came about because someone died.

I was forced to watch a 20-30 minute safety video which involved a nitrogen purged enclosed space that managed to get two workers.  They just keeled over within seconds of entering the space.

Thing about a pure nitrogen atmosphere is that your lungs will actually diffuse out any O2 in the bloodstream along with the CO2.  It's pretty simple - if the hemoglobin is more than 2% CO2, because there's less CO2 in the air in the lungs, it'll tend to diffuse out CO2.  If the O2 is less than 16%, the blood will tend to diffuse in O2.  If O2 is around 0% and blood O2 is around 8%, then it'll diffuse out O2 as well.  Then, when that de-oxygenated blood hits the brain, lights out.

[Ron]

Makes one wonder why it hasn't been used all along.

[MechAg94]

I figured it had something to do with using gas for executions considering what happened during WWII. 

Either way, it would be a lot cheaper and simpler than using lethal injections. 

[Firethorn]

Makes one wonder why it hasn't been used all along.

The best I can think of is that I agree with MechAg94 - people have/had a very, very bad taste in their mouths about "gassing people" since WWII, also we previously used hydrogen cyanide when the thinking was 'poison them', which had many nasty side effects, isn't painless, is nasty to see, and tends to leave dangerous pockets of itself around.

There's a reason I tend to emphasize how 'safe' it is to others in the area, because hydrogen cyanide isn't.

[Mannlicher]

Nitrogen is better than nothing, but I'd like to go back to public hangings.  Seriously.

[Scout26]

Nitrogen is better than nothing, but I'd like to go back to public hangings.  Seriously.

Pour Encourager les Autres....

[Firethorn]

Nitrogen is better than nothing, but I'd like to go back to public hangings.  Seriously.

I've read about hanging.  Nitrogen is more foolproof, especially when the condemned is more than a standard deviation away from average height/weight.  Hanging gets complicated - you have to calculate the height of the drop relatively carefully to successfully break the neck while not pulling the head off.  Even the stretch of the rope needs to be accounted for, which is why most professional hangings were done with new rope, because new rope had known stretch, while used rope was more variable.  

I know that people here might not care, but even the English of the 18th century cared about preventing that, and they were rather more bloodthirsty than modern day.

I want executions to be as fool-proof as possible.  Put convict in specified room, flip this lever from "air" to "nitrogen", wait 30 minutes, flip back to "air", done.  Better yet, put the lever on a timer so it automatically goes back to "air".  

Hmmm...
Starting state:  bar gate closed & locked, airtight door locked open, safety system locked for execution lever.
Switch air handling system on - constant fan, using filtered outside air.  Nobody should be in the chamber without this being on.  This also activates the scent unit.  
Test O2 sensors(not alarms) inside room.
Test O2 alarms outside of room.
Verify that N2 tanks are full.
Inspect seals on execution chamber.
Inspect and fill heated "scent" unit that ensures that the prisoner can't smell the switch.  I suggest "clean linen" or "lavender".  Prisoner choice is an option.
Transfer prisoner to execution chamber.  Lock door.
Await final approval for execution.
Verify, by video, that the condemned, and only the condemned, is in the execution chamber, and that the chamber is properly secured.
remove the safety ping and lock(s)(Warden is only holder of key, there may be additional keys required) from the execution lever.  Note:  There should be a mechanical safety that prevents moving the lever if the chamber door isn't secured.
Verify, by video, that the condemned, and only the condemned, is in the execution chamber, and that the chamber is properly secured.
Throw the execution lever.  It is on a 30 minute timer(or whatever is determined to be optimal).  This changes the air supply from outside air(filtered) to N2.
Verify that the O2 sensors show an appropriate decrease in O2 levels in the room.
Verify that O2 levels are remaining good outside the chamber.
Wait until timer is finished.
Return the lever to "Air", insert safety pin and lock in place.
Wait until the O2 sensor in chamber reaches normal(breathable) levels. - Note:  Electrical lock should lock chamber until this is true.
Open chamber
Lock chamber - the airtight door should be secured open with the Warden's key.
Verify Death
Remove body.
Clean and refresh chamber.
Bar gate can be closed & locked.  The barred entrance can be locked closed, but the airtight door shall remain secured open.  Note:  The room probably counts as a 'confined space' requiring special training to work in.  People get themselves killed each year in them, even when trained, so we should be careful here.
Turn off air handling system - which should be on whenever there's somebody possibly in the room.

[sumpnz]

I've read about hanging.  Nitrogen is more foolproof, especially when the condemned is more than a standard deviation away from average height/weight.  Hanging gets complicated - you have to calculate the height of the drop relatively carefully to successfully break the neck while not pulling the head off.  Even the stretch of the rope needs to be accounted for, which is why most professional hangings were done with new rope, because new rope had known stretch, while used rope was more variable. 

I know that people here might not care, but even the English of the 18th century cared about preventing that, and they were rather more bloodthirsty than modern day.

I want executions to be as fool-proof as possible.  Put convict in specified room, flip this lever from "air" to "nitrogen", wait 30 minutes, flip back to "air", done.  Better yet, put the lever on a timer so it automatically goes back to "air". 

Hmmm...
Starting state:  bar gate closed & locked, airtight door locked open, safety system locked for execution lever.
Switch air handling system on - constant fan, using filtered outside air.  Nobody should be in the chamber without this being on.  This also activates the scent unit. 
Test O2 sensors(not alarms) inside room.
Test O2 alarms outside of room.
Verify that N2 tanks are full.
Inspect seals on execution chamber.
Inspect and fill heated "scent" unit that ensures that the prisoner can't smell the switch.  I suggest "clean linen" or "lavender".  Prisoner choice is an option.
Transfer prisoner to execution chamber.  Lock door.
Await final approval for execution.
Verify, by video, that the condemned, and only the condemned, is in the execution chamber, and that the chamber is properly secured.
remove the safety ping and lock(s)(Warden is only holder of key, there may be additional keys required) from the execution lever.  Note:  There should be a mechanical safety that prevents moving the lever if the chamber door isn't secured.
Verify, by video, that the condemned, and only the condemned, is in the execution chamber, and that the chamber is properly secured.
Throw the execution lever.  It is on a 30 minute timer(or whatever is determined to be optimal).  This changes the air supply from outside air(filtered) to N2.
Verify that the O2 sensors show an appropriate decrease in O2 levels in the room.
Verify that O2 levels are remaining good outside the chamber.
Wait until timer is finished.
Return the lever to "Air", insert safety pin and lock in place.
Wait until the O2 sensor in chamber reaches normal(breathable) levels. - Note:  Electrical lock should lock chamber until this is true.
Open chamber
Lock chamber - the airtight door should be secured open with the Warden's key.
Verify Death
Remove body.
Clean and refresh chamber.
Bar gate can be closed & locked.  The barred entrance can be locked closed, but the airtight door shall remain secured open.  Note:  The room probably counts as a 'confined space' requiring special training to work in.  People get themselves killed each year in them, even when trained, so we should be careful here.
Turn off air handling system - which should be on whenever there's somebody possibly in the room.

Watch the movie Pierrepoint sometime.  The title character was quite good at adjusting the drop and was the best hangman the Brits ever had.  Supposedly one of the most prolific ones too.  He was called in to do all the executions for the Nazi war criminals for the Brits.

[MillCreek]

^^^That was a very good movie.  The title role was played by Timothy Spall, who later went on to greater fame as Peter Pettigrew in the Harry Potter series.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Table_of_Drops  The table of drops was refined over several decades and was later used as the basis for the US Army hangman manual.  https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/procedure_dec-1947.pdf