Author Topic: Op rod AR upper ?  (Read 7603 times)

caseydog

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Op rod AR upper ?
« on: December 02, 2006, 08:41:15 PM »
I know we do most of the gun talk over at THR , but I was watching Shooting USA tonite and saw the story on a redesign of the AR-15 / M16 by Z-M weapons , it would seem the have a very succesful upper in both semi civilian and selectable military. They got rid of the rear recoil spring system and moved it up top , wrapped around an Operating Rod !, yes they are expensive but getting rid of the direct gas inpingement is a YIPEE moment for me and the AR , why have I not heard of this before Huh?

Apparently they have some in use with SPecial Forces in Iraq and Afgan with great reliability.

http://www.shootingusa.com/TV_SCHEDULE/SHOW_26-02/show_26-02.html

http://www.zmweapons.com/index.htm

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brimic

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 09:54:16 PM »
Cons:
-more weight
-more moving parts
-decreased accuracy

Pros:
-You don't need to clean it quite as often

I think I'll stay with the direct gas inpingement myself.
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BakerMikeRomeo

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 10:14:02 PM »
Man, who doesn't make a freaking op-rod AR upper anymore? I'm pretty sure they're so prevalent you can pick them up on sale at Hot Topic.

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caseydog

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2006, 10:22:33 PM »
Quote
Man, who doesn't make a freaking op-rod AR upper anymore?

Yeah , I've seen others in passing , I guess what struck me as special about ZM was they actually got a military contract , and judging by the breakdown they actually simplified the take down and integrated top rail issue rather than making a CF of it.

Ray
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2006, 10:24:18 PM »
I don't get the piston-driven AR thing, myownself.  The gas impingement system is one of the features of the AR that appeals to me.

Why bother jury-rigging some op rod contraption onto an AR when there are plenty of fine rifles designed from the ground up to use op rods?

El Tejon

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2006, 06:27:14 AM »
Why?  To sell, of course. grin

Yet another solution in search of a problem.  An entire industry springing up to combat the Errornet drivel of "it shits where it eats."  *sigh*
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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2006, 08:15:45 AM »
Maybe after the M16/AR15 system has gone through several decades of use and has been used in several actual military conflicts successfully the naysayers will hush up........... rolleyes

Harold Tuttle

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2006, 08:57:17 AM »
what the op rod ZM does permit is a side folding stock
as there is no buffer tube/ buffer required
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mustanger98

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2006, 12:20:46 PM »
I'd heard of op-rod AR uppers before, but hadn't seen one till I saw Shooting USA last night. I actually like this concept as ZM presents it, but the price tag's attrocious. I'll stick with my M1 Garand.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2006, 12:26:27 PM »
The lack of a buffer tube is the only practical thing I can think of, since the AR will run just fine with a bit of lube and moderate cleaning, like every rifle.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2006, 01:28:43 PM »
The South Korean infantry rifles are essentially op-rod ARs with the recoil spring wrapped around the piston instead of stuffed in a buffer tube.  I don't know much about ZM or their product, but from what's been said here it sounds like all they did was copy the Korean design.

Gewehr98

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2006, 07:00:43 PM »
Being one of those GIs who actually had an M16 choke up on me from carbon fouling in the works, I definitely believe in the "poops where it eats" design flaw of the Stoner poodleshooter.  Thank Gawd it was only during my qualification shoots, vs. my time in Baghdad.  My own personal FN M16A2 was kept religiously clean as a result.  Hell, I have a Swedish AG-42B that's gas-impingement, and it's an order of magnitude cleaner running than the M16/AR-15.  So I welcome a copy of the excellent Daewoo AK/AR hybrid system, one just has to pick the right one.  As for inaccurate rifles that use real oprods, tell that to my M14NM.   undecided
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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2006, 10:47:09 PM »
I fired my AR today.  Hadnt cleaned it in a while.  Ran just fine.  I dont see what the problem is.
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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2006, 12:30:18 AM »
Caseydog and everyone,

I'm sure you've been over to AR15.com to look around.  But, if you haven't, the op-rod is well discussed over there.

My limited, under educated opinion is that the AR15 works fine in it's current direct gas impingement format.
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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2006, 02:48:36 AM »
Cons:
-more weight
-more moving parts
-decreased accuracy

Pros:
-You don't need to clean it quite as often

I think I'll stay with the direct gas inpingement myself.
Plus it's kind of ugly...
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roo_ster

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2006, 06:07:31 AM »
Yes, an AR15 with gas-impingement can be kept going under hard-use conditions.

Just make sure:
1. Your armorer or yourself regularly replaces all the springs, especially the extractor, ejector, & buffer springs.
2. Make sure the leetle washers on the butt-end of the bolt do not have their void spaces lined up.  Replace them often, too.
3. Keep it assiduously clean and appropriately lubed.  Then clean it again, concentrating on the chamber, bolt, & bolt carrier.

The AR15 is a hot-rod design.  If not constantly tended it can and will go tango uniform on you.  Most op-rod designs do better in unfriendly environments and with less maintenence & cleaning.

For those of you with personal AR15s who have never had a problem, ask yourself the following questions:
1. Do you pay for your own ammo or does Uncle Sam pay for it?
2. Have you ever fired so stinking much in one day that you don't wanna fire any more but continue because some loud & insistent third person says so...and has the authority to make it stick?
3. Do you measure the round count though your AR in the thousands or tens of thousands?
4. Have you had to keep your AR15 up & running in a sandy/dirty/muddy/rainy environment for weeks with only the little 2oz bottle of CLP, a shaving brush, a few patches, the issue brushes and rods...while running through several thousands of rounds that create these huge chunks of carbon in your upper and all over your bolt, carrier, & chamber?

The AR15 has its pros & cons.  The chief con is the TLC it requires to keep going in harsh use & environments.  Op-rod versions try to address this issue with some degree of success.

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roo_ster

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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2006, 07:00:08 AM »
From what i have read from Col. Santose, the need for bolt gas ring alignment is a myth

ARs have been running in harsh environments for a few moons

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2006, 07:08:06 AM »
For those of you with personal AR15s who have never had a problem, ask yourself the following questions:
1. Do you pay for your own ammo or does Uncle Sam pay for it?
2. Have you ever fired so stinking much in one day that you don't wanna fire any more but continue because some loud & insistent third person says so...and has the authority to make it stick?
3. Do you measure the round count though your AR in the thousands or tens of thousands?
4. Have you had to keep your AR15 up & running in a sandy/dirty/muddy/rainy environment for weeks with only the little 2oz bottle of CLP, a shaving brush, a few patches, the issue brushes and rods...while running through several thousands of rounds that create these huge chunks of carbon in your upper and all over your bolt, carrier, & chamber?
The implication being that if you don't have a drill sergeant yelling at you or if you don't count rounds by the 10k, your inherently flawed rifle will magically work better than it should?

I'm not aware of any mainstream military rifle that is so poorly designed that one cannot rely upon it to function if it's properly maintained and properly lubed.  Cleaning is nice, but unless you let your rifle go many thousands of rounds between cleanings then it isn't strictly necessary, even for the AR.

If your rifle rifle isn't working for you, then you need to either stop abusing it or have it repaired.  Blaming it on the design of the rifle is a cop out.

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2006, 07:11:44 AM »
I was going to post but the Headless One said it best.
Again, 40 years' succesful deployment is hard to argue with.
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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2006, 10:50:01 AM »
For those of you with personal AR15s who have never had a problem, ask yourself the following questions:
1. Do you pay for your own ammo or does Uncle Sam pay for it?
2. Have you ever fired so stinking much in one day that you don't wanna fire any more but continue because some loud & insistent third person says so...and has the authority to make it stick?
3. Do you measure the round count though your AR in the thousands or tens of thousands?
4. Have you had to keep your AR15 up & running in a sandy/dirty/muddy/rainy environment for weeks with only the little 2oz bottle of CLP, a shaving brush, a few patches, the issue brushes and rods...while running through several thousands of rounds that create these huge chunks of carbon in your upper and all over your bolt, carrier, & chamber?

The implication being that if you don't have a drill sergeant yelling at you or if you don't count rounds by the 10k, your inherently flawed rifle will magically work better than it should?
No magic needed.  Just metallurgy and design. 

The implication is that those who can answer, "yes" to some of the above have used a particular weapon beyond the "shiny & new" phase.  Springs are no longer quite what they once were when new and wear has begun to develop in other areas that effect reliable function.  The weapon likely works just fine when clean & happily lubed.  When it gets fouled with carbon, sand, & other detrius is when it fails...at a lower round count than when it was new.

I'm not aware of any mainstream military rifle that is so poorly designed that one cannot rely upon it to function if it's properly maintained and properly lubed.  Cleaning is nice, but unless you let your rifle go many thousands of rounds between cleanings then it isn't strictly necessary, even for the AR.
Frequent cleaning is downright necessary for many/most high-round-count AR15s that have not had several of their more critical springs replaced.

The Indians might take issue with your first point.

If your rifle rifle isn't working for you, then you need to either stop abusing it or have it repaired.  Blaming it on the design of the rifle is a cop out.
>>Alert: A painfully obvious point follows this warning.<<
Design has a huge effect on maintenence requirements. 

Some of the maint is user-level, some goes to the unit armorer, & some can only be performed by higher.  If one design has greater maint requirements over use than another, it is perfectly reasonable to state such, or "blame" the design.

What is abuse?  Does that include IMT where the AR is used to break one's fall, causing the bolt & carrier's inertia to flip the ejection port cover to open & allow foreign matter to enter when the user flops prone?  Issue weapons that are used are going to be used HARD, much harder than you or I would likely use our privately owned weapon at the range.

I was going to post but the Headless One said it best.
Again, 40 years' succesful deployment is hard to argue with.
Luckily, for most of those 40 years, we have not had to put many of our ARs to long term hard use...and got periodic replacements: M16 > M61A1 > M16A2 > M4 & M4A1 & M16A4.

I do not argue that it is a POS, any more than I would argue that the M4 Sherman tank (the tank that helped win us WWII, an undeniable success) was a POS, despite being a design inferior to most other major fielded designs.  The deciding factor is not the AK or the Ar, but the user. 

------------

FWIW, I used to maintian ARs of various configuration and age (ancient CAR-15s, M16A2s, M4A1s, & others) for my unit.  Shiny new ARs worked as advertised.  High round count weapons did not until I replaced several springs in the upper & the buffer spring.  My guess is that the extractor & ejector spring fatigued over time and gradually were less able to yank a cartridge out of the chamber after carbon built up in the upper.  Also, the carbon & foreign material slowed down the bolt & carrier.  Last (and least likely to effect reliability, IMO) , the buffer spring could not push home the bolt & carrier against the extra resistance of the carbon in the upper & chamber.

Unfortunately, I did not have time or funding to gather the sort of data I would like:
1. Precise round counts
2. Failures
  a. Type
  b. Total round count
  c. Round count since last cleaning
  d. Lube regimen
3. Corrective action (parts replaced, etc)

Pretty much , if any hooah was having reliability issues, I swapped out springs if no glaring deficinecy (in personal weap maint or mechanical) was apparent.  Usually did the trick for the next range.  Some weapons were problem children, however, and were true PITA to keep rolling.

-------

What we (USA, USMC) have done is adjust our training to accomodate the peculiarities of our chosen weapon platform.  Most times, training can overcome non-optimal equipment.
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roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2006, 11:25:13 AM »
Cons:
-more weight
-more moving parts
-decreased accuracy

Pros:
-You don't need to clean it quite as often

I think I'll stay with the direct gas inpingement myself.
Plus it's kind of ugly...

I thought ugly was a design requirement of the AR.  Tongue
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2006, 11:56:11 AM »
Cripes, replace your goram springs.  Of course your rifles will stop working if you wear the springs out and fail to replace them. 

If your rifles are full of worn and out of spec parts, then your rifles are defective and need to be repaired.  No machine can be expected to perform optimally when its critical parts are defective.  Don't blame the design of the rifle, blame your armorer for failing to keep your rifles in spec.  Oh, wait...  that was you.  So blame yourself, not the design.  Hmm...  on second thought, better blame the design.  Tongue

This is like driving your truck 300,000 miles without replacing the clutch or the brake pads, then wondering why its shifting and braking performance isn't quite what it used to be.  Obviously the problem is that Detroit couldn't design a proper vehicle.  It has nothing to do with wearing out critical components well past the point where the machine becomes defective.   rolleyes

You're not the only one who uses your ARs past the "shiny and new" phase.  There are bajillians of ARs in civilian, police, and military hands that are used hard without experiencing reliability issues.  This obviously wouldn't be possible if there were systematic flaws in the basic design of the AR.  If their ARs were working and mine weren't, then I would identify what I was doing wrong and adjust my behavior accordingly.

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2006, 12:09:46 PM »
I dont understand the issue.  All guns--heck, all machines-- have maintenance procedures.  If you don't follow them, the machine won't work.  M1911 springs need to be replaced every 2-3k rounds or so.  If you don't do that, it wont work well.
Is the argument that the AR platform needs more or more frequent maintenance than other guns?  Every weapons system has its peculariarities.  I would rather work on a non-functioning AR than a non-functioning AK.
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roo_ster

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2006, 05:22:47 PM »
Is the argument that the AR platform needs more or more frequent maintenance than other guns?  Every weapons system has its peculariarities.  I would rather work on a non-functioning AR than a non-functioning AK.

I agree/affirm with all three of your statements. 

The AR is more maintenence-intensive relative to both other assault-type rifles and its predecessors in the US military inventory.  A side note is that it is generally less tolerant of harsh conditions outside of maintenance.

Every weapon system is a compromise.  Size, weight, cost are just three of hte most easily quantitfied.  In the case of the AR15, some robust reliability was compromised for other nice-to-haves.  Intentionally or not, that is the way it turned out.

I have much less time behind an AK and wrenching one, so I will go with that, too.

As far as not understanding the issue, I think you understand more than you might think.  Some folks just plain do not like or agree with the design compromises embodied in the AR series of weapons, the two most glaring being its relatively small(er) envelope of reliable operation and the cartridge.  I am of the opinion that we ought to have chosen a different weapon when we bought the M4/M4A1/M16A4 gereration of ARs.  I suspect some of the logisticians were hoping they could plug the gaps until OICW was deployed.  Whatever the reason (cost, log simplification, training costs, etc.), it was a defensible call.

Of course, there is the other contingent that can brook no criticism of their beloved AR.  They remind me of hte "King James Version Only" folks.
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roo_ster

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Re: Op rod AR upper ?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2006, 06:53:56 PM »
Cripes, replace your goram springs.  Of course your rifles will stop working if you wear the springs out and fail to replace them. 

If your rifles are full of worn and out of spec parts, then your rifles are defective and need to be repaired.  No machine can be expected to perform optimally when its critical parts are defective.  Don't blame the design of the rifle, blame your armorer for failing to keep your rifles in spec.  Oh, wait...  that was you.  So blame yourself, not the design.  Hmm...  on second thought, better blame the design.  Tongue

Now, I am not a doctor, but perhaps some of what El Tejon suggested using in the following post could help with your outlook:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=5172.msg78481#msg78481

The weapons I referred to were in spec, according to the manuals, quarterly PMs, etc.  The weapons functioned, just not as reliably as we would have liked or they once had. 

The spring swap was a measure to keep from having to send them to the post armorers, as we wouldn't see the weapons for months.  A lot of time the swap worked, sometimes not. 

You're not the only one who uses your ARs past the "shiny and new" phase.  There are bajillians of ARs in civilian, police, and military hands that are used hard without experiencing reliability issues.  This obviously wouldn't be possible if there were systematic flaws in the basic design of the AR.  If their ARs were working and mine weren't, then I would identify what I was doing wrong and adjust my behavior accordingly.
Yep, nobody but my unit has had reliability issues with ARs.  It was an unheard-of phenomenon until my unit was stood up.  rolleyes

I doubt there are that many civilian ARs that got the kind of use our weapons did.  We had a rather large trainng budget.  Heck, I bet only a very few ARs on a very few police depts see that kind of use.

I think we can se where you are coming from in this sentence, "This obviously wouldn't be possible if there were systematic flaws in the basic design of the AR."  You speak of flaws & blame, I speak of design compromises.  You write that some things in the AR universe are "not possible," while others have experienced the possible and come to understand the design's limitations and how to work around them.

I hope you enjoy your AR.  I look forward to acquiring the parts and building one in the coming year.
Regards,

roo_ster

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