Op rod AR upper ?

[brimic]

M1911 springs need to be replaced every 2-3k rounds or so.  If you don't do that, it wont work well.

Speaking of which, I've seen many more failures with 1911s than all other guns put together. This is the gun that most internet 'gun experts' want to see replacing the M9, while in the same breath telling us that the AR has to go too because of reliability problems. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

BTW: I love my 1911 and would sooner shoot my self in the foot with it than trade it for a plastic fantastic.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

All machines have parts that wear out under normal operation.  It's important that you keep them in proper repair if you expect them to perform properly.  If you use your rifles as hard as you say, then this would be especially critical for you.  It sounds like your rifles needed new springs at minimum, and probably more serious work which you were reluctant or unable to send them off for.  I'm not surprised that you found they didn't work well.  You have my sympathies.

Merry Christmas.

[Perd Hapley]

Of course, there is the other contingent that can brook no criticism of their beloved AR.  They remind me of hte "King James Version Only" folks.

They're more analogous to those who decry any modification from Browning's original M1911. 

[The Rabbi]

M1911 springs need to be replaced every 2-3k rounds or so.  If you don't do that, it wont work well.

Speaking of which, I've seen many more failures with 1911s than all other guns put together. This is the gun that most internet 'gun experts' want to see replacing the M9, while in the same breath telling us that the AR has to go too because of reliability problems. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

BTW: I love my 1911 and would sooner shoot my self in the foot with it than trade it for a plastic fantastic.

You've probably seen more 1911s period just because the design popularity means every Tom Dick and Heinrich is making one.  But the point is valid anyway.  Design has improved dramatically.  I would rather be working on a non functioniong Glock than a non functioning 1911.
As for the AR, what I hear mainly is the caliber issue.  I would invite everyone who thinks that bigger is better to go lug 500 rounds of 7.62 NATO for a day and then tell me we ought to be fielding that.
Some of the people spouting this stuff I think view the military as an extension of their private gun collection, where changing from an AR to an FN-FAL is as easy as buying the gun, mags, and ammo.  It aint so.

[richyoung]

The AR was NOT, repeat NOT, designed to be an Army battle rifle.  It was designed for use by Air Force security forces guarding nuclear armed bombers.  B-52s, -58s, -47s, etc are not normally operated from areas with lots of blowing sand, etc.  There is not much cover tohid behind (get shot thru) on an AFB.  The AR series is also NOT designed for use with ball powder.  For some reason, after the Air Force and U.S. Secret Service adopted the AR-15/M-16 someone had the bright idea to get the Army to replaceits M-14s with it, feed it ammo loaded with ball powder, tell the grunts that it NEVER needed to be cleaned, and to replace markmanship with spray-n-pray.  With predictable results.

[Joe Demko]

The AR was NOT, repeat NOT, designed to be an Army battle rifle.  It was designed for use by Air Force security forces guarding nuclear armed bombers.

Got any documentation for this?  AFAICT, the rifle was designed to be sold to whomever wanted it in order to make Armalite a profit.  The basic idea of a high speed, small caliber projectile was something lots of people were working on at the time, not just Stoner/Armalite.  The AF was then the first to adopt the rifle, but it wasn't designed for them.

[Harold Tuttle]

Stoner designed the AR-10 to be a .308 MBR and Armalite down scaled it to .223

I didn't know the Secret Service adopted rifle platforms

 

[The Rabbi]

It's an almost complete myth.
In Long's book on the AR he goes through the history of the AR and its adoption.  Yes, the Air Force adopted it first.  But it was already being looked at by the military, and in 1962 it underwent tests by ARPA in the DoD.  Among their finding were that aimed fire was not really all that important and more rounds really did make a difference.

[Harold Tuttle]

obviously the AR system was in evaluation for awhile:

[richyoung]

Stoner designed the AR-10 to be a .308 MBR and Armalite down scaled it to .223

I didn't know the Secret Service adopted rifle platforms

 

Well, they do.  In fact, one of the theories behind the massive head wound that JFK got is that a Secret Service guard in the old "linebacker" limo following the presidential limo picked up an AR-15 when the first shots rang out, and fired an AD into the bakc of Kennedy's head.  So the Secret Service had them in late '63, at least.

[richyoung]

Testimony Of Clinton J. Hill, Special Agent, Secret Service

...
Mr. HILL. I was working the followup car, which is the car immediately behind the Presidential car.
Mr. SPECTER. And how many cars are there ahead of the followup car, then, in the entire motorcade?
Mr. HILL. There was a lead car ahead of the President's car, the President's car, then this particular followup car.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any car in advance of the car termed the lead car?
Mr. HILL. There could have been a pilot car, but I am not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how far in front of the President's car did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade?
Mr. HILL. I would say a half block, maybe.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far was the President's car in front of the President's followup car during the course of the motorcade?
Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. How were the agents armed at that time?
Mr. HILL. All the agents were armed with their hand weapons.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to the hand weapons?
Mr. HILL. Yes. There is an AR-15, which is an automatic rifle, and a shotgun.
Mr. SPECTER. And where is the AR-15 kept?
Mr. HILL. Between the two agents in the rear seat.

[richyoung]

Wikipedia's version of the adoption...

Curtis LeMay viewed a demonstration of the AR-15 in July 1960. He immediately ordered 8,500 for defense at Strategic Air Command airbases, later rescinded by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. Colt Industries also approached the Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA), who bought 1,000 rifles for use by South Vietnamese troops in the early summer of 1962. American special operations units and advisors working with the South Vietnamese troops filed battlefield reports lavishly praising the AR-15 and the stopping effectiveness of the 5.56 mm cartridge, and pressed for its adoption.

U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara now had two conflicting views: the ARPA report favoring the AR-15 and the Pentagon's position on the M14. Even President John F. Kennedy expressed concern, so McNamara ordered Secretary of the Army Cyrus Vance to test the M14, the AR-15 and the AK-47. The Army's test report stated only the M14 was suitable for Army use, but Vance wondered about the impartiality of those conducting the tests. He ordered the Army Inspector General to investigate the testing methods used, who reported that the testers showed favor to the M14.

 
Marines practice with M16A2 rifles in 2003Secretary Robert McNamara ordered a halt to M14 production in January 1964, after receiving reports that M14 production was insufficient to meet the needs of the armed forces. Secretary McNamara had long been a proponent of weapons program consolidation among the armed services. At the time, the AR-15 was the only rifle that could remotely fulfill a requirement of a 'universal' infantry weapon for issue to all services. McNamara ordered the weapon be adopted unmodified, in its current configuration, for immediate issue to all services, despite receiving reports noting several deficiencies with the M16 as a service rifle, including the lack of a chrome-lined bore and chamber, the 5.56 mm projectile's instability under arctic conditions, and the fact that large quantities of 5.56 mm ammunition required for immediate service were not available. In addition, the Army insisted on the inclusion of a forward assist plunger to help push the bolt into battery in the event that a cartridge failed to seat in the chamber through fouling or corrosion. Such a device had been incorporated into later versions of the AR-10, which also had a chrome-lined chamber to prevent corrosion (Pikula). Colt on the other hand, had argued the rifle was a 'self-cleaning' design, requiring little or no maintenance. Colt, Eugene Stoner, and the U.S. Air Force believed that a forward assist needlessly complicated the rifle and added about $4.50 to its procurement cost, with no real benefit. As a result, the design was split into two variants: the Air Force's M16 without the forward assist, and for the other service branches, the XM16E1 with the forward assist.

[Matthew Carberry]

For all Kennedy's Kennedy-ness, the man is comfortably handling an automatic rifle in the Oval Office.  be nice to see that kind of thing again.

He's not all rigid or dorky looking like Kerry or Gore in pictures with guns.

-Off-Topic-

If he hadn't been assassinated, on the narrow issue of gun control, I wonder where we'd be?

His brother's killing was certainly inspired by the idea you could shoot a President.  Without those two deaths of popular men, beloved of that generation of reporters, I don't think the GCA's of the '60's would have been as supported or even proposed.

MLK's assassination added to those two in effect, but I bet, on it's own, would have been mourned as just the action of an angry racist, not blamed on the rifle itself.

Ever been a thread on the "what if's?"

[Perd Hapley]

Kennedy was a member of the NRA, was he not? 

[Joe Demko]

Yes, Kennedy was in the NRA.  He was also something of a gun enthusiast, though I don't know that he could have been said to be a collector.  I recall reading an article some years ago written by one of his associates.  JFK, it turns out, really liked the James Bond books.  So much in fact that JFK purchased a Beretta .25 which was what Bond was using at the time...don't remember which story it was where Bond is required to turn in the Beretta .25 and take the Walther .32 instead.

[Perd Hapley]

In the movies, I think it was Doctor No where he turned in the "Berreter."

[Harold Tuttle]

Letter from President John F. Kennedy to the NRA

March 20, 1961

Dear Mr. Orth:

On the occasion of Patriots Day, I wish to offer my contgratulations and best wishes to the National Rifle Association of America which over the past years has done credit to our country by the outstanding achievements of its members in the art of shooting.

Through competitive matches and sports in coordination with the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, the Association fills an important role in our national defense effort, and fosters in an active and meaningful fashion the spirit of the Minutemen.

I am pleased to accept Life Membership in the National Rifle Association and extend to your organization every good wish for continued success.

Sincerely,

John Kennedy

[El Tejon]

Who has the pic of JFK shooting on the back of his boat off Cape Cod?  JFK's dad had a piece of which military surplus company?

Back to the AR silliness.  The AR-15 was designed for anyone who would buy it (specifically armies using it as a "battle rifle"--whatever those are), the USAF was one of the first to adopt it.  Bobby McDonald took an AR-15, "Old Number 4", around the world in many different climates (European, Arab, Asian) and the weapon performed flawlessly.

If you live in a wasteland, then you have to care for your weapon differently.  Keep it clean and lubed and you'll be fine.

[Joe Demko]

For all Kennedy's Kennedy-ness, the man is comfortably handling an automatic rifle in the Oval Office.  be nice to see that kind of thing again.

He does have the air of man who is enjoying what he is doing in the photos I have seen of him handling guns.  Have we had a POTUS since JFK about whom you could say the same thing?  I can't recall ever seeing a picture or film of LBJ with a gun.  Reagan and Carter both came from backgrounds that made them familiar with the use of guns, but I don't recall seeing a picture of either of them handling a gun that looked like anything but a staged photo-op.  Carter genuinely was a hunter, though; and I've read letters between Reagan and the inventor of the Gyrojet pistol that indicate Reagan owned one and enjoyed shooting it when ammo was available.
Bush I, for all his background as a military pilot and head spook, always had such an air of prissiness about him that I never could picture him hunting or shooting and actually enjoying it.  Tennis or golf at the country club seemed much more his style. 
Bill Clinton, as we all remember, was the most anti-RKBA POTUS we ever had; even though his background was such that he should have grown up hunting and shooting.  In fact, I suspect that he isn't a committed anti in his black little heart.  That, like everything else he ever did in an official capacity, was nothing but a calculated political maneuver.  In the case of the AWB, a miscalculation..as even he admitted.
Bush II is supposedly a gun enthusiast.  The internet is filled with FOAF stories spread by his partisans to the effect that he has a Thunder Ranch (or similar) .45 in his nightstand at the Whitehouse, among other things.  I don't buy it.  Despite his efforts to cultivate the good ol' boy image by brushcutting at his ranch and so forth, he still strikes me as more of the tennis/golf at the club type.  He has minions to carry guns for him.