Question for the smart types - security cameras

[AmbulanceDriver]

Looking for security cameras for the house, and saw this setup at Costco... Any opinions?

http://m.costco.com/Q-See-16-Channel-HD-Analog-DVR-with-2TB-HDD,-9-1080p-Cameras-with-100'-Night-Vision.product.100295702.html

[Firethorn]

1080P, 15FPS?  You're looking at movie-quality resolution, even if glass might mean that you don't get movie quality.  Night vision as standard.  Looks like easy install.  Probably a good option.

[AJ Dual]

1080p is very good, because even at 720 identification can be iffy if you need to show some burglar or lurker to the police.

The big thing though is to make sure the DVR recordings and display end will also give you 1080p on all the channels.

From the specs it looks like it does. And Costco's return policy is quite liberal if it doesn't meet expectations.

I'd buy that, then set up one camera and see how the field of view and playback quality looks on a large HDTV, and if you can make out faces etc. I'd say you're good to go.

The only fault I find with the cameras is that they're BNC/coax video and a separate DC power adapter/cable, which is a potential PITA getting power to all the cameras. Something that's all digital/ethernet and uses power-over-ethernet is (POE) is nice because it saves you the trouble of running outlets if there's none in reach of the power adapter, and you only have to run one wire to each camera that way. Unfortunately, the industry seems to be treating that as a "high end feature" on more expensive systems, when honestly, it could actually be cheaper because there's less parts in the camera heads that way. 

[MechAg94]

The security camera we use at a remote compressor station at work uses POE.  It works pretty good and the setup is easy.  Not a cheap camera though.

[AmbulanceDriver]

1080p is very good, because even at 720 identification can be iffy if you need to show some burglar or lurker to the police.

The big thing though is to make sure the DVR recordings and display end will also give you 1080p on all the channels.

From the specs it looks like it does. And Costco's return policy is quite liberal if it doesn't meet expectations.

I'd buy that, then set up one camera and see how the field of view and playback quality looks on a large HDTV, and if you can make out faces etc. I'd say you're good to go.

The only fault I find with the cameras is that they're BNC/coax video and a separate DC power adapter/cable, which is a potential PITA getting power to all the cameras. Something that's all digital/ethernet and uses power-over-ethernet is (POE) is nice because it saves you the trouble of running outlets if there's none in reach of the power adapter, and you only have to run one wire to each camera that way. Unfortunately, the industry seems to be treating that as a "high end feature" on more expensive systems, when honestly, it could actually be cheaper because there's less parts in the camera heads that way. 

Actually, the cable is a "siamese" BNC/power cable.   So I just need to have power at the DVR end, as there are power blocks/splitters to feed 4 cameras from each power block.

[AJ Dual]

Actually, the cable is a "siamese" BNC/power cable.   So I just need to have power at the DVR end, as there are power blocks/splitters to feed 4 cameras from each power block.

Oh good. That solves that problem.

[KD5NRH]

1080p is very good, because even at 720 identification can be iffy if you need to show some burglar or lurker to the police.

Nah; just make sure the coverage has plenty of overlaps so they can track all the way back from the location of th body to any particular point in the video they want to reference.

Best thing, IMO, is having an audio channel for the one over the front door.  It's funny how sales pitches change when they know they're being recorded...and other scammers are best caught with audio anyway, since it gives better info for the PSA the local LE usually does when they're informed of one.

[tokugawa]

Very interested in this also-  be nice to have camera's around the house and shop- also, I have a gate about 200 feet away it would be nice to have a camera monitoring- can the cable be strung that far?

[dogmush]

Very interested in this also-  be nice to have camera's around the house and shop- also, I have a gate about 200 feet away it would be nice to have a camera monitoring- can the cable be strung that far?

I ran a camera like this 250' or so feet to the end of my shop at work for a gate cam.  video quality suffered quite a bit over that long a run of co-ax, and over the years the signal has gotten worse.  I think the cable (indoors but not climate controlled) is weathering or getting pest chewed on. 

Were I doing it at my place I'd look into wireless cams.  Those aren't cheap though.

[AJ Dual]

I ran a camera like this 250' or so feet to the end of my shop at work for a gate cam.  video quality suffered quite a bit over that long a run of co-ax, and over the years the signal has gotten worse.  I think the cable (indoors but not climate controlled) is weathering or getting pest chewed on. 

Were I doing it at my place I'd look into wireless cams.  Those aren't cheap though.

That many cams at 1080p will also start to overload your WiFi, unless you run newer 802.11A/C, and even better, run an independant WiFi on another channel just for those cameras.

Kind of surprised it's an analog signal in the Q-See product. Seems like extra expense/trouble just to do DAC, then go do ADC back at the DVR box.

But I'm still hung up on the lack of inexpensive POE all digital cameras. Giga knows the struggle, having worked on setting up their system for the family biz at the greenhouse store.

[AmbulanceDriver]

That many cams at 1080p will also start to overload your WiFi, unless you run newer 802.11A/C, and even better, run an independant WiFi on another channel just for those cameras.

Kind of surprised it's an analog signal in the Q-See product. Seems like extra expense/trouble just to do DAC, then go do ADC back at the DVR box.

But I'm still hung up on the lack of inexpensive POE all digital cameras. Giga knows the struggle, having worked on setting up their system for the family biz at the greenhouse store.

This. I was looking at IP cameras at first, and a similar setup with IP cameras and a NVR was over twice the price.

[dogmush]

Only run the farther away cam on wifi. Wire the rest.


Or get a booster for the analog cable. I dunno, haven't gotten one working yet. I just know that a long coax run and BNC connectors makes it hard to ID cars at my gate, much less people.

[Ben]

That many cams at 1080p will also start to overload your WiFi, unless you run newer 802.11A/C, and even better, run an independant WiFi on another channel just for those cameras.

I was thinking of something like that here. Separate wireless router, just for the cam system, and an old laptop for realtime viewing.

[RevDisk]

Heyo!  

 Looking over "Q-See", they are not the actual manufacturer. Which isn't necessarily bad. Apple doesn't make iPhones after all. Good news is, if you're willing to do a lot of legwork, once Q-See goes out of business, you can likely buy identical cameras from other similar rebranders. They may or may not lock down the cameras with firmware to prevent you from using alternative hardware, that's becoming more popular. The hard drive in the NVR is not redundant. etc, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/QS558-852-1-Channel-Security-Surveillance-High-Resolution/dp/B009HPBPOY

Short story, it's not bad for the price. As long as you're fine with the limitations, it's a decent buy.

As you can probably guess, I highly recommend POE IP cameras rather than proprietary systems. Except for the cheapest IP cam, they all follow ONVIF standard. I've never had an ONVIF camera that couldn't be read by every IP cam app or recorder. Cat5e is easier to run throughout your house than coax. It's easier to terminate. POE switches are everywhere nowadays. There's a bazillion people that can set up an IP network.  As for wireless IP cameras, I can make a definitive statement: I've never seen an outdoor WiFi camera that wasn't junk. There's tons of cheap indoor ones that work well enough. You can get 720p WiFi indoor cameras for less than $40. I've been looking for an IP68 outdoors WiFi camera for ages, haven't found one worth the price. "IP68" is the term for an outdoor camera that is reasonably waterproof and weatherproof. IP66 or IP67 is fine as well, but generally the camera is labeled IP68 or not labeled at all. Generally, I cheat. I use a WiFi bridge to tap into the wireless network and use a POE injector to power the camera. Adds an extra $60 to the cost, but it's dead reliable.

Wired POE cameras, there's a bazillion. Giga has had good luck with Foscom. I have a lot of ACTi cameras, and really love Hikvision cameras. From personal experience, I recommend fewer cameras with better resolution. I'm very partial to using NAS's as network recorders, but there's good PC software as well. Or network recorder appliances, but they get pricey or come with sharp limitations.

[KD5NRH]

They may or may not lock down the cameras with firmware to prevent you from using alternative hardware, that's becoming more popular.

Not so easy on the wired analog ones.  I haven't had mine out of storage since the divorce, but IIRC, I tested them using an old monitor with RCA inputs, and they're just normal analog cameras with IR filter and LEDs controlled in the camera itself..

[RevDisk]

Absolute gold standard is the following blog: http://www.networkcameracritic.com/

Unfortunately, the guy who ran it passed away. His family is trying to find someone worthy enough to take it over.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Sadly, IP cams with an NVR are out of the budget.   As a rule of thumb, comparable systems with IP cams and NVR's appear to run at least twice what an analog system with a DVR runs.    Why is beyond me.   

So I'm stuck running analog cams with a DVR - I went ahead and ordered the system since the $100 off Costco deal was expiring, and the system should be arriving on the 25th.     I'll post an AAR once I've got it out of the box and played with it for a bit.

[RevDisk]

Sadly, IP cams with an NVR are out of the budget.   As a rule of thumb, comparable systems with IP cams and NVR's appear to run at least twice what an analog system with a DVR runs.    Why is beyond me.   

So I'm stuck running analog cams with a DVR - I went ahead and ordered the system since the $100 off Costco deal was expiring, and the system should be arriving on the 25th.     I'll post an AAR once I've got it out of the box and played with it for a bit.

Because IP cams and NVRs are open, easier to power, easier to expand, less space, far superior image, megapixel vs 480 line interlaced analog, more flexible, easier to install, generally significantly extensive functionality. I assure you, it's "why are IP cams so cheap compared to analog".   

Analog systems are generally not open and have specific features, so you're vendor locked. They're expensive for what you get. You'll likely have to buy replacement units from your vendor. Lot of people want to be able to check their system from their phone, which is generally easy with any modern IP solution. Analog greatly ranges, but usually not as easy. If you don't need remote access or extended functionality, analog is a better choice. Equivalent cost analog is usually more reliable, but when it fails, it fails a lot harder.

Cabling is usually the part people don't appropriately cost out. Good coax is more expensive and harder to run than good cat5e. Smaller max distance, though. Keep an eye on distance if you're using the camera's built in IR diodes. Longer distance means less power. Repeaters or extenders exist for both, but you have to do the logistical planning. Use rg59 siamese coax. Solid or 95% braided copper shielding is fine (solid vs braided is 9mm vs .45acp in cam world). No foil wrapped core. No CCA. Avoid CCA (copper clad aluminum), yes it is cheaper, but don't do it. If you don't think you're overpaying for the cable, don't buy it. Cheap cable is a very very bad decision you will regret. Let me say that again, SPEND THE MONEY ON THE CABLES. Cameras and NVRs come and go. You'll toss them in a couple years. Cables don't. Also, CCTV Baluns do exist. You can mix coax and cat5e. You can get pretty insane distance from using cat5e cable and cctv (coax) cameras. Like 3432 ft insane distance.

http://muxlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/CCTV-Balun-Application-Guide.pdf

If I sound overly critical, I apologize. You should always choose the appropriate solution for your needs. A $10k IP solution is going to obviously outperform a $600 analog bundle. Just like an M134E will 'outperform' a single shot shotgun. But you don't always need a M134E... Ok, that's a white lie. You can't always AFFORD an overkill solution, or would rather spend the extra money on other stuff. IP comes with a lot of inherent advantages, but if none of them apply, they're obviously not a factor.

[tokugawa]

Rev,
 You obviously know this stuff inside out and backwards- to me it is all gibberish-
Ever think of putting packages together? 

[AmbulanceDriver]

Believe me, I wanted the M134E equivalent here.   But sadly, as you said, you can't always afford the overkill solution.  So I'm going with something that is at the top of the current budget.   The nice thing is that I have room for expansion with this system.   The 9 cameras that come with it will exactly fit my minimum coverage map that I've worked out so far.   But having a 16 channel head means that if I need to add on a camera or 2, well, that's an option at least.   As much of a pain in the ass as it will be, I have to run with the provided cable right now.   over time, as I can, I'll run new better siamese coax.   

This appears to be the cable that comes with it:



I don't think that good coax can be folded up like that......

[RevDisk]

Rev,
 You obviously know this stuff inside out and backwards- to me it is all gibberish-
Ever think of putting packages together? 

No, because soaks up money into sitting inventory. I can draw out a complete system to spec and cost however. I charge reasonable fees for design work, and for installs charge a decent rate. Depending on the work and length, $50-100 per hour but that includes all tools and incidentals. Obviously customer pays for all actual supplies and installed equipment. So I have to rent an SDS drill or whatnot, I pay rather than nickle and dime the customer. Granted, I offer to remove any surplus leftover cable or whatnot. Have tons of boxes of partial cat 5e.

[RevDisk]

Believe me, I wanted the M134E equivalent here.   But sadly, as you said, you can't always afford the overkill solution.  So I'm going with something that is at the top of the current budget.   The nice thing is that I have room for expansion with this system.   The 9 cameras that come with it will exactly fit my minimum coverage map that I've worked out so far.   But having a 16 channel head means that if I need to add on a camera or 2, well, that's an option at least.   As much of a pain in the ass as it will be, I have to run with the provided cable right now.   over time, as I can, I'll run new better siamese coax.   

This appears to be the cable that comes with it:



I don't think that good coax can be folded up like that......

Uh, wow. Uhm. Well, it's your property and you seem to be a reasonable adult. As long as you understand the risk, it's your business. If offered the choice in my house between no cameras and running the best cameras on the market with that cable, I would choose no cameras without hesitation. I could be wrong. You can test it yourself, though.

- Take a cable, try to tap a nail into it, with the same level of force as say putting in a picture frame. If the nail goes into the sheath (I suspect it will), plug everything in and put in contact with flammable material (obviously in a non-combustable environment). If it doesn't catch fire, offer the nail a grounding cable (while wearing thick rubber gloves). This isn't academic, I've tested normal, 'armored' and actually armored cabling in this exact same fashion in the past.
- Run the cabling over a very rough piece of lumber, preferably with sharp splintering, a couple hundred times under tension to simulate install friction.
- Plug everything in and feel the temperatures. If you get hot spots, toss the cable.

Cheap cameras are an economic decision, one I agree with. I strongly recommend you reconsider your choice in cabling. Delaying until you can run safer cabling is a good idea. If you are absolutely insistent, consider using conduit. That'd make everything probably a non-issue

[AmbulanceDriver]

Rev, what would you consider good cable for this?  I'm trying to search, and to say there's a *lot* of what appears to be crap cable out there would be an understatement.

And let me rephrase the question - do you have a link to what you would consider acceptable?    Searching using the parameters you laid out earlier lands me with lots of different result, none of which seems much better than what comes with the kit I bought.

[Firethorn]

You know, I have a thought - If the cable was really that bad, you'd think that it'd show up in the kit reviews, or there'd be numerous mentions of people upgrading the wiring.

On the power side - don't these cameras need in the range of 1 watt?  You don't need to be pushing enough power to easily start a fire.

For that matter, I'm reminded that PoE is pushing a few watts over a Cat5/Cat6 cable - which isn't armored or particularly wear resistant(in most forms) either.

[RevDisk]

Rev, what would you consider good cable for this?  I'm trying to search, and to say there's a *lot* of what appears to be crap cable out there would be an understatement.

And let me rephrase the question - do you have a link to what you would consider acceptable?    Searching using the parameters you laid out earlier lands me with lots of different result, none of which seems much better than what comes with the kit I bought.

Anything appropriately marked. Sorry if I seem like a wanker about this but bad wiring can be unsafe at worst and give you crap results at best. Anything marked riser and plenum should be fine. "In-wall" without being marked CMP or CMR should be viewed with suspicion. With CMR/CMP, tis fine.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H89C81U  - alleged CMP, probably good enough to be used as CMR. $155.00
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FW6OIZA - About the lowest I'd go, $62.

You want 20 AWG for video, 18AWG Power for power. You can cheat a little there.

If you don't want to go with bulk purchase, long pre-terminated cables are available. Excellent reviews with lots of photos. I haven't installed them before (I term my own, cheaper) but I've seen other folks use them with good results.

https://www.amazon.com/Swann-Fire-Rated-Extension-Cable-SWPRO-60MFRC-GL/dp/B0076CLICY/
https://www.amazon.com/Swann-Fire-Rated-Extension-Cable-SWPRO-30MFRC-GL/dp/B0076QH71Q/

These are your best bet if you don't want to do terminations (putting on the ends) yourself. They have smaller lengths. They're CMR and UL rated. If there's a fire, even unrelated to your camera wiring, your insurance company can't yell about improper wiring.

You know, I have a thought - If the cable was really that bad, you'd think that it'd show up in the kit reviews, or there'd be numerous mentions of people upgrading the wiring.

On the power side - don't these cameras need in the range of 1 watt?  You don't need to be pushing enough power to easily start a fire.

For that matter, I'm reminded that PoE is pushing a few watts over a Cat5/Cat6 cable - which isn't armored or particularly wear resistant(in most forms) either.

Strongly disagree. Most cat5/cat6 put in walls is either 'riser' (CMR)  or 'plenum' (CMP) rated. If it's not, it's not to code. Which isn't particularly armored, but is wear resistant, meets fire code and meets building code. There is 'general purpose' cat5 for patch cables or desktop use. Honestly, always buy riser. Plenum is needed for plenum spaces, and is a good bit more expensive than riser. Riser is not significantly more expensive than general purpose.

I admit I could be wrong, hence why I recommended testing. Their website says 12VDC, 300 mA to 2.5 A. So up to 30watts. 30 watts is max of POE spec. Normal consumer POE is usually 15.40 W. POE is also supposed to turn itself off if things go hinky. On all but the dodgiest equipment, the POE injector or switch should be smart enough not to fry non-POE stuff on the other end. And if you plan on using POE, you should spec decent cable as well. Also, power is spread over two pairs. 7.7watt per pair. Normal ethernet is 2.2VDC to 3.15VDC, maybe 4VDC for gigabit.

As for people complaining about using the wrong cabling, I've had to put my foot down with facilities managers and IT people who should know better about appropriately using riser and plenum where necessary. People with decades of experience and education that knew which wire they should be running.