Author Topic: XKCD takes on global warming  (Read 19878 times)

cordex

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2016, 01:57:56 PM »
Are humans impacting the atmosphere?  Almost certainly.  To what extent?  Debatable.
Agreed.  The term I've heard used is lukewarmer.  That is to say, recognition of some level of AGW without going full-on alarmist.

If they really believed their children were going to grow up in a world of famine and rising sea levels, I'd think they'd be  interested in real solutions, such as a wholesale resurgence in 5th gen "walk-away-safe" nuclear power etc.
Spot on.  The people who preach AGW alarmism the loudest are among the ones least likely to live a low-emission lifestyle.  Thus, they either don't believe what they are preaching or they are just too important to live like it is true.  Or both.

KD5NRH

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2016, 02:00:40 PM »
I just love extrapolating from the last two data points.

What?  You mean that just because tomorrow's high is expected to be 2F higher than today, doesn't mean that I can predict a high of 300F by the end of the year?

RevDisk

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2016, 02:01:48 PM »
Thorium has its own issues. We have a LOT of fossil fuels. But over time, it's gonna get more expensive to extract and we're going to need a plentiful cheap fuel. We'll go with thorium, eventually. Cheaper and less proliferation risks than uranium or plutonium. It's gonna be a while before we get there. But good news is we have enough thorium to probably last until we can figure out fusion. We have a couple thousand years worth of thorium. Hundreds for uranium.

Solar folks like to say that you'd only need to turn 0.6% of the US into solar cells to theoretically power everything through the sun. A more realistic 5% of the land is a LOT of land. Ignoring distribution and energy storage, that's a lot of silicon and rare earth metals. It'd be nice because it's lower maintenance and you could get lower skilled personnel to do it. And you'd need to continuously add more PV cells to keep up.
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Ben

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2016, 04:20:59 PM »
It's based on the deviation from the average temperature from 1961-1990. Lots of flaws applyng that over a 22,000 year time series where you have vast differences in data resolution. Especially when you pick and choose your resolutions to prove your point.

Are we contributing? Yes. Not as much as a supervolcano though, and I saw no high temporal resolution pullouts of any of those. You could easily move temps a couple of degrees over 50 years with one, but it would smooth out over a 500 year line. Of course we also are using analogs for all prehistoric dates, since there were no met stations around circa 15000BC. Good enough for +-100 years (probably), but then you can't make direct comparisons to <100 year temperature datasets that were collected with high resolution equipment.

Also, there is absolutely no natural reason that the Earth couldn't get down to <1% global ice over the next 10,000 years, or rebuild ice over the same timeframe. Talking about <100 year climatological changes is simply ridiculous unless you're a conceited human who has only been on the planet a minute or so in geologic timescales.

Also, 97% of "climate scientists" is not actually 97% of climate experts, like planetary climatologists and astrophysicists. I knew lots of people who called themselves "climate scientists" at the old job, including in published papers. Yet they actually were biologists or had degrees in environmental science. They were simply encouraged by bosses and grants to add AGW components to their research. Kind of a circle thing.

Also, yes - nuclear. I find that to be an excellent delineator between people who actually want to do something and the people who drive Priuseses and create giant carbon footprints flying to their eco-vacations.
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brimic

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2016, 05:28:23 PM »
Quote
Solar folks like to say that you'd only need to turn 0.6% of the US into solar cells to theoretically power everything through the sun. A more realistic 5% of the land is a LOT of land.

If each of the 57 states had the same amount of land, that would cover almost 3 entire states!
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De Selby

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2016, 06:22:46 PM »
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/425232/climate-change-no-its-not-97-percent-consensus-ian-tuttle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming#Scientists_arguing_that_global_warming_is_primarily_caused_by_natural_processes

But I guess until I post a huffpo article, watermelons like you won't understand that it's not "settled science" and the "consensus" on the causation of climate change isn't a consensus at all.

 

The national review says it?  Wow.  Not a political publication at all.

From your link to wiki:

Quote
Few of the statements in the references for this list are part of the peer-reviewed scientific literature; most are from other sources such as interviews, opinion pieces, online essays and presentations.

Quote
The scientific consensus is that the global average surface temperature has risen over the last century.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

birdman

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2016, 06:26:00 PM »
The best solution right now is nuclear.  Come up with a good design pattern, and build it many times over.

We have...and have had it for decades

Investigate thorium cycle reactors.  Thorium reactors have many benefits, but we have historically been less interested in them specifically because of their limited military applicability.

Not really....really not really, and anyone that links "thorium" but not ALSO "uranium" with "can't melt down" has no idea what they are talking about.

I hate strongly dislike / pity "but but but ...thorium" people.

brimic

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2016, 06:37:03 PM »
We have...and have had it for decades

Not really....really not really, and anyone that links "thorium" but not ALSO "uranium" with "can't melt down" has no idea what they are talking about.

I hate strongly dislike / pity "but but but ...thorium" people.

With no disrespect intended, do tell. I've read a lot about the thorium reactors, and as a lay person to nuclear science, I find them interesting... please give us the other side of the story.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2016, 06:48:09 PM »
We have...and have had it for decades



And there is a design for a whole damn plant that is small enough it could be transported on a couple of "oversize load" trucks. That design and it's forerunners has an impeccable safety record stretching back more than 6 decades.

 
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zxcvbob

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2016, 07:02:22 PM »
And there is a design for a whole damn plant that is small enough it could be transported on a couple of "oversize load" trucks. That design and it's forerunners has an impeccable safety record stretching back more than 6 decades.


That makes sense; the Navy has been using nuclear reactors for years in subs and carriers, and I think now also in destroyers and cruisers.

Here's an interesting article I just found on commercial small reactors: http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/nuclear-power-reactors/small-nuclear-power-reactors.aspx
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MechAg94

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2016, 08:56:56 PM »
At least the guy does show correctly that temperatures are roughly similar to now from 7500 BCE to 3000 BCE, dropped until 1700 and started rebounding.

Unlike a lot of folks here and more in line with general consensus, I do suspect humans have impacted our global climate. To how what extent, what impact it is having, how we should resolve any issues, etc is where I differ from a lot of the green folk and professional climate change crowd. I'd like to know the real measurable impact without 'corrected' data (raw only please), quality measurements on the measuring stations, etc. Then as good of a survey as we can on the current impact. Then a list of the possible solutions with associated costs.

Chlorofluorocarbon were pretty straightforwardly proven to cause issues with the Ozone layer. They are the example I most often use of actually doing environmentalism correctly. The problem was identified. We worked out accurate scientific data of what CFCs in what amounts do. We worked out acceptably economic alternatives. Paul Crutzen, Mario Molina and Sherwood Rowland were the most famous scientists involved, and won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1995. Realistic treaties were written, with realistic deadlines. There was no guesswork, complete reliance on theoretical models, interpreted data, etc. Actual consequences were accurately assessed. There was hysterical shrieking, but mostly from the usual suspects and generally not from the scientists involved. In other words, how it should be handled. Perfect, fair from that. But it went mostly smoothly and was validated every step along the way. The ozone layer these days is on the mend, which is nice.

I tell the hippies that I and plenty of others are willing to do environmentally friendly stuff. Provided it can be logically and economically presented. If CFC alternatives are 10% less efficient (ie need 10% more power for same cooling), I'm willing to pay that if it can be reasonably proven that skin cancer, cataract surgery, crop damage, etc will outweigh that cost by a significant percentage. "Go live in a yurt, you evil polluter!" is not a reasonably proven economic solution.
While I agree with your premise to about finding real solutions, that is a terrible example.  The only difference between banning chlorofluorocarbons and banning CO2 is we didn't have to destroy our way of life to go without chlorofluorocarbons.  Banning stuff is the first thing environmentalist always go for.  There was nothing unique or better about this solution.

There was never a damn ozone hole.  The ozone layer is always thinner at the poles since most ozone forms nearer the equator.  There was just as much misinformation and hiding of the data with the ozone business as there is with global warming.  Sure, banning or limiting that compound might have been a good thing in the long run, but the hysteria over it was overblown IMO.  The real effect was to make refrigerant much much more expensive.  It had been so cheap people were dumping it in the atmosphere in large quantities keeping leaking air conditioning going among other things.  Now, the newer refrigerants are too expensive to do that and there are still regulations about how much can be added to a unit.  When you consider the cost of current refrigerants and continued regulation, your idea of 10% efficiency loss is a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost we are all paying. 

The global warming "solutions" are actually quite similar, but on a much grander scale. 
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Boomhauer

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2016, 10:27:06 PM »
You want to talk about refrigerants? Here's how *expletive deleted*ing stupid environmentalists are. They phased out older ones such as R12 through legislation. It has been replaced in mobile units by r-134a.

I cannot willfully release R-134a into the atmosphere. By law I have to recover it. Yet I can go into a store and buy it in cans for blowing off keyboards and electronics, because that's "ok"


I've also watched environmentalists devastate the energy industry which in turn has hit mine very hard. Dumb mother *expletive deleted*ers who don't understand how *expletive deleted*it really works should not be allowed to make laws and dictate policy.
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Scout26

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2016, 11:10:14 PM »
Of course we're causing it
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/02/18/haarp-chemtrails-weather-modification-true-source-climate-change/

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Balog

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2016, 12:13:15 AM »
You want to talk about refrigerants? Here's how *expletive deleted*ing stupid environmentalists are. They phased out older ones such as R12 through legislation. It has been replaced in mobile units by r-134a.

I cannot willfully release R-134a into the atmosphere. By law I have to recover it. Yet I can go into a store and buy it in cans for blowing off keyboards and electronics, because that's "ok"


I've also watched environmentalists devastate the energy industry which in turn has hit mine very hard. Dumb mother *expletive deleted*ers who don't understand how *expletive deleted*it really works should not be allowed to make laws and dictate policy.

Please link to a place selling r134a for blowing off keyboards.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2016, 12:14:00 AM »
Dumb mother *expletive deleted*ers who don't understand how *expletive deleted*it really works should not be allowed to make laws and dictate policy.

That's a high bar.  =|

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Marnoot

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2016, 12:55:19 AM »


"Did you know that disco record sales temperatures were up 400% 0.4° for the year ending 1976 2000? If these trends continue...AY!"

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2016, 01:19:06 AM »
As a proud member of ICA (The International Chemtail Association, like us on Facebook), let me remind you that dimmer skies are safer skies.

A-ha!  Proof at last!


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RevDisk

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2016, 10:02:31 AM »
While I agree with your premise to about finding real solutions, that is a terrible example.  The only difference between banning chlorofluorocarbons and banning CO2 is we didn't have to destroy our way of life to go without chlorofluorocarbons.  Banning stuff is the first thing environmentalist always go for.  There was nothing unique or better about this solution.

There was never a damn ozone hole.  The ozone layer is always thinner at the poles since most ozone forms nearer the equator.  There was just as much misinformation and hiding of the data with the ozone business as there is with global warming.  Sure, banning or limiting that compound might have been a good thing in the long run, but the hysteria over it was overblown IMO.  The real effect was to make refrigerant much much more expensive.  It had been so cheap people were dumping it in the atmosphere in large quantities keeping leaking air conditioning going among other things.  Now, the newer refrigerants are too expensive to do that and there are still regulations about how much can be added to a unit.  When you consider the cost of current refrigerants and continued regulation, your idea of 10% efficiency loss is a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost we are all paying. 

The global warming "solutions" are actually quite similar, but on a much grander scale. 

I wasn't trying to argue we should all go live in yurts and eat dirt. Quite the opposite. The process with that example was at least mostly science based, reasonably if imperfectly implemented and realistic. Would I be shocked if there were gaping flaws in the process? Nope. Expecting governments to be precision instruments is hilarious. There was a problem. How big or how small is debatable. But it was reasonably proven that large amounts of CFCs leaking into the atmosphere caused problems. Even if smaller than presented (likely), it could be reasonably assumed that if continued it would become a problem even if it was not at the time. We migrated to economic alternatives. Imperfectly, but overall it didn't crater our way of life.

The entire CFC global reduction had probably less overall impact on the US economy than any one of the more modern environmental regs. Specifically, trying to hose the entire energy industry and plowing tens of billions into alleged 'green' initiatives. I'm likely imperfectly explaining it (yuck yuck), but trying to make the point that the process of how we dealt with CFCs was a billion times better than how we allegedly are dealing with climate change. As others pointed out, if the leaders of said climate change stuff really believed it, they would be backing actual plans to deal with the problem rather than "milk the crisis". One could make the same case about terrorism. Or a billion other alleged 'major issues'.
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birdman

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2016, 10:53:21 AM »
With no disrespect intended, do tell. I've read a lot about the thorium reactors, and as a lay person to nuclear science, I find them interesting... please give us the other side of the story.

There isn't a thorium reactor design that is melt-down resistant that isn't melt-drown resistant with a U/Pu cycle.

Thorium isn't a thorium fueled reactor, it's a thorium / URANIUM breeder reactor.

All the fuel quantity awesomeness associated with a thorium cycle is because it's a breeder...so comparison must be made to a U/Pu breeder...which actually work better, due to neutron economy.

Thorium cycle is proliferation resistant because 1. No Pu. 2. While u-233 can be made into a bomb, the other stuff is so OMG INSANE RADIOLOGICALLY HOT that anyone attempting to make a bomb would die on their way out the building...which is an odd way to solve proliferation...by making your fuel cycle crazy dangerous compared to others.

My problem with thorium is that it's major selling point is "it's not plutonium"...(since it -is- a uranium fuel cycle), and thus "different is better"...which is demonstrative of ignorance as to the really reason why nuclear plants aren't built more--ignorance (ironically).

Nick1911

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2016, 11:56:13 AM »
Not really....really not really, and anyone that links "thorium" but not ALSO "uranium" with "can't melt down" has no idea what they are talking about.

I hate strongly dislike / pity "but but but ...thorium" people.

Bit of a strong response...

To clarify, I'm not suggesting only thorium.  I'm also not suggesting that it's inherently safer.

You want to talk about refrigerants? Here's how *expletive deleted*ing stupid environmentalists are. They phased out older ones such as R12 through legislation. It has been replaced in mobile units by r-134a.

Got news for you... I just attended a Trane seminar.  Looks like R134a and R410a are on the chopping block.  Last year for R134a in motor vehicles is model year 2021.  R410a isn't on a final rule yet, but it is on proposed rules.  They want to get rid of all HFC's.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-08/documents/snap_regulatory_factsheet_july20_2015.pdf
https://www.chemours.com/Refrigerants/en_US/assets/downloads/opteon-refrigerants-us-epa-snap-regulations.pdf

Boomhauer

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2016, 11:59:16 AM »
Yes I know they are transitioning to HFO-1234yf, which my new Dodge Ram uses
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brimic

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Re: XKCD takes on global warming
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2016, 12:51:48 PM »
There isn't a thorium reactor design that is melt-down resistant that isn't melt-drown resistant with a U/Pu cycle.

Thorium isn't a thorium fueled reactor, it's a thorium / URANIUM breeder reactor.

All the fuel quantity awesomeness associated with a thorium cycle is because it's a breeder...so comparison must be made to a U/Pu breeder...which actually work better, due to neutron economy.

Thorium cycle is proliferation resistant because 1. No Pu. 2. While u-233 can be made into a bomb, the other stuff is so OMG INSANE RADIOLOGICALLY HOT that anyone attempting to make a bomb would die on their way out the building...which is an odd way to solve proliferation...by making your fuel cycle crazy dangerous compared to others.

My problem with thorium is that it's major selling point is "it's not plutonium"...(since it -is- a uranium fuel cycle), and thus "different is better"...which is demonstrative of ignorance as to the really reason why nuclear plants aren't built more--ignorance (ironically).

Isn't plutonium needed to initiate the thorium-uranium cycle?
It was my understanding that plutonium breeder reactors would still be needed to produce the plutonium needed for thorium reactor startup.
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