Video of Tulsa police shooting Terence Crutcher

[wmenorr67]

http://www.newson6.com/story/33160895/press-conference-held-at-tulsa-county-courthouse

First degree manslaughter charges against the officer have been filed.

[KD5NRH]

http://www.newson6.com/story/33160895/press-conference-held-at-tulsa-county-courthouse

First degree manslaughter charges against the officer have been filed.

Imagine that; keep the protests actually peaceful and the proper process can get going.

Now, if the court does the usual "police are special and so endangered that they must be allowed to kill anyone who moves wrong in their presence" farce, I'll have little sympathy when the professional agitators start a daily nonstop bus line between Charlotte and Tulsa, but if they'll try the case reasonably, then this could be a great example for both sides.

[wmenorr67]

I will be surprised if this makes it to court within a year.

There is a case down here where an off-duty cop executed his daughter's boyfriend and he still hasn't been to trial and it has been over a year.

[HeroHog]

I would put $$ that that is not blood on glass you see but the seatbelt because why would the blood go all the way to the top of the window? Why would it run down the window in a perfect stripe? Why, when it got to the door, would it suddenly start to splatter and spread?

[Brad Johnson]

He reached in through the glass?

Dark strip in the window looks to me like a seat belt hanging from the b-pillar harness.

Brad

[KD5NRH]

I would put $$ that that is not blood on glass you see but the seatbelt because why would the blood go all the way to the top of the window? Why would it run down the window in a perfect stripe? Why, when it got to the door, would it suddenly start to splatter and spread?

It's about Crutcher's shoulder level, not an unreasonable place for a blood track to start.  It would also be easy to disprove if false; surely there are some crime scene photos, or even just another frame of the video from the circling helicopter that would show the streak on the window not aligning with the one on the door.  Also, it doesn't look to me like it spreads until below the door handle.

There's also a couple of frames of a specular reflection just about dead center in the window opening when one of the cops is swinging his flashlight around.  Could be a video artifact, but it sure looks like window glass.

[Perd Hapley]

Imagine that; keep the protests actually peaceful and the proper process can get going.

That's not what made the difference. The difference between Tulsa and Charlotte is that one shoot is bad, and the other good. Generally speaking, BLM outrage/crime correlates positively with the guilt of the deceased. Thus, although the facts are not yet in, the BLM reaction predicts the outcome in most cases.

[HeroHog]

Notice where he lines up in relation to the car.



Notice where the shot was and relate that to that "stripe" on the window. There is no way that strip "on the window" came from that wound. (Click to see full size)

[Hawkmoon]

It's not uncommon to have back windows tinted and front's clear.  Many vehicles come from the factory that way.

ALL vehicles come from the factory that way, because many states have laws prohibiting deep tint on the front side windows.

[MechAg94]

It's also the problem with not having the street level audio.  I'm wondering if the reason that hasn't been released is that we might find out something about the commands given, (possibly conflicting) deceased's statements, (maybe he said his hearing aid was in the car) or timing of the shot/tazer that's not good for the PD.

I would be curious what you think that would be.  If you have one then multiple cops facing you with guns drawn, do you turn back to your vehicle to go get your hearing aide?  strange behavior IMO.  It is just as plausible that he could have been baiting the cops to shoot him for some reason.  It sucks the guy got shot, but I don't see what he did as normal behavior.  

I figure charges were made on the officer to try to head off a repeat of what is happening in Charlotte.  Unless something comes out that points to guilt, I figure the officer won't get convicted of anything.  I bet her career as an officer is over though.  

[RoadKingLarry]

I bet her career as an officer is over though

The very second a white cop shot a black man.

[MechAg94]

The very second a white cop shot a black man.

In this case yes.  However, this stuff happens more often without the officer's name and face plastered all over the news. 

[KD5NRH]

It sucks the guy got shot, but I don't see what he did as normal behavior.

If not acting normal is justification for deadly force, then all of us are in trouble.

With multiple cops on scene, none within hand to hand range and at least one on target ready to fire, there was no need to start shooting without a visible weapon.

[Hawkmoon]

With multiple cops on scene, none within hand to hand range and at least one on target ready to fire, there was no need to start shooting without a visible weapon.

Early on, I saw one article suggesting that the shooting was unintentional -- as in a nervous trigger press due to stress. That would indicate poor trigger finger discipline -- violation of Cooper's Rule Number 3 (the full version: "Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target and you're ready to fire").

I can't find that reference now -- I suspect the department has done their best to make it go away.

[MechAg94]

If not acting normal is justification for deadly force, then all of us are in trouble.

With multiple cops on scene, none within hand to hand range and at least one on target ready to fire, there was no need to start shooting without a visible weapon.

So you are saying he has to grab a gun and shoot at the cops before they can fire?  Abnormal behavior with guns pointed at you is a recipe for getting shot no matter what the situation is or who you are.  You can't lay 100% of the responsibility on the police.  

I heard one local police officer comment that police these days are trained to almost never lay hands on a suspect to subdue them.  So they go from commands to taser to guns.  It made me think that 60 years ago, the guy would have ended up getting hit with a nightstick before he made it back to his vehicle.  I am not sure if that is better or not.  If they had dog piled the guy and beat the hell out of him (or it looked like they did), there would still be a public mess over it and demands for charges against the cops.  

[De Selby]

Refusing to follow a direction, in and of itself, is not a justification for being shot, tased, night sticked, or otherwise physically attacked.

As a country we need to get over this "obey at all costs!" Mentality.

[birdman]

As a country we need to get over this "obey at all costs!" Mentality.

Unless it has to do with reducing emissions to prevent global warming, or paying more taxes to improve social services, or accepting single payer healthcare... Amiright?  Right?

[De Selby]

Unless it has to do with reducing emissions to prevent global warming, or paying more taxes to improve social services, or accepting single payer healthcare... Amiright?  Right?

These political issues are the same or even remotely close to "LEO shouldn't shoot you for disobedience alone" how???

Talk about a spurious attempt to make a discussion about law enforcement into a general "left vs right" bag of nonsense  

[Hawkmoon]

Refusing to follow a direction, in and of itself, is not a justification for being shot, tased, night sticked, or otherwise physically attacked.

As a country we need to get over this "obey at all costs!" Mentality.

What's this "we" stuff, Counselor? IIRC you're not here, you're in Australia.

Refusal to comply with police commands IS justification for them to deploy the taser. That's what is. In most jurisdictions, that's policy. I happen to agree with you that the police in the U.S. -- generally -- have become much too "compliance" focused, with the emphasis on giving orders and demanding instant compliance rather than discussion and negotiation, but neither you nor I gets to wear a badge or make department policy.

[De Selby]

What's this "we" stuff, Counselor? IIRC you're not here, you're in Australia.

Refusal to comply with police commands IS justification for them to deploy the taser. That's what is. In most jurisdictions, that's policy. I happen to agree with you that the police in the U.S. -- generally -- have become much too "compliance" focused, with the emphasis on giving orders and demanding instant compliance rather than discussion and negotiation, but neither you nor I gets to wear a badge or make department policy.

You may not realise but according to the IRS I'm an American no matter where I live.

Sorry, but I don't agree that inflicting severe pain is justified unless a person demonstrates some sort of threat to others.

[brimic]

You may not realise but according to the IRS I'm an American no matter where I live.

Sorry, but I don't agree that inflicting severe pain is justified unless a person demonstrates some sort of threat to others.

Like not paying taxes?

[birdman]

These political issues are the same or even remotely close to "LEO shouldn't shoot you for disobedience alone" how???

Talk about a spurious attempt to make a discussion about law enforcement into a general "left vs right" bag of nonsense  

I brought them up because your usual response to those topics tends toward authoritarianism, so thus it's ironic you are recommending we "as a country" get over the obey at all costs mentality.

[Hawkmoon]

Sorry, but I don't agree that inflicting severe pain is justified unless a person demonstrates some sort of threat to others.

I believe you have identified the crux of the issue. Refusal to comply with an officer's request order command IS a threat -- to the officer's ego, and to the entire police state mentality and system.

"You WILL respect mah aw-thaw-rih-tay!"

[Scout26]

I believe you have identified the crux of the issue. Refusal to comply with an officer's request order command IS a threat -- to the officer's ego, and to the entire police state mentality and system.

"You WILL respect mah aw-thaw-rih-tay!"

Actually, no.  The police officer has very little to no background on you (other than wants and warrants, and perhaps priors.)   We were taught to treat every stop as a felony stop simply because we don't know what happened.   You could have just murdered your entire family, we don't know.  You may have decided that you want to commit suicide by cop, or that you've decided to kill as many cops (and/or other people) as possible.   Or you may simply be not paying a attention when you rolled through the stop sign, or late to pick up your kids from soccer practice which is why you weren't just pushing the speed limit but ignoring it.

Plus everyone want to be the person that makes the latest and most viral youtube video ever, so there are a lot of people that will attempt to goad police into action.   Then bitch about when it happens.   Guess what?  Keep poking the bear there snowflake, but don't act surprised or all butthurt when the bear pokes back.

We don't know.   And it takes very little time for things to go completely pear shaped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8oS1JuRxbQ

What we do know is that we have a job to do.   And frankly De Selby, I am completely disappointed in you.   I was taught that you argue your case in court and not by the side of the road.  Sadly, in today's society it seems the entire special snowflake mentality has made it impossible for people to follow some simple directions for the safety of everyone.  Why is that so hard?  And it's only for a few minutes at the most.

Are there some egomaniac cops (and departments) out there.  You betcha.    And I believe that they should drummed out of police work and if appropriate prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.   And sadly, that doesn't happen.

The rule of law is pretty much dead in this country, it's just too stupid to fall over.  A hard rain is gonna fall, but I can only hope that people realize what was lost and reclaim it again.

[Perd Hapley]

Scout, your post sounds a lot like "They had to shoot him because they didn't know whether he planned to kill everybody, and he wouldn't play Simon Says." I thought lethal force was only permitted when there is (or reasonably seems to be) an imminent threat.