Video of Tulsa police shooting Terence Crutcher

[De Selby]

I brought them up because your usual response to those topics tends toward authoritarianism, so thus it's ironic you are recommending we "as a country" get over the obey at all costs mentality.

Uh, care to cite an example of me supporting authoritarian responses to anything???

[De Selby]

Actually, no.  The police officer has very little to no background on you (other than wants and warrants, and perhaps priors.)   We were taught to treat every stop as a felony stop simply because we don't know what happened.   You could have just murdered your entire family, we don't know.  You may have decided that you want to commit suicide by cop, or that you've decided to kill as many cops (and/or other people) as possible.   Or you may simply be not paying a attention when you rolled through the stop sign, or late to pick up your kids from soccer practice which is why you weren't just pushing the speed limit but ignoring it.

Plus everyone want to be the person that makes the latest and most viral youtube video ever, so there are a lot of people that will attempt to goad police into action.   Then bitch about when it happens.   Guess what?  Keep poking the bear there snowflake, but don't act surprised or all butthurt when the bear pokes back.

We don't know.   And it takes very little time for things to go completely pear shaped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8oS1JuRxbQ

What we do know is that we have a job to do.   And frankly De Selby, I am completely disappointed in you.   I was taught that you argue your case in court and not by the side of the road.  Sadly, in today's society it seems the entire special snowflake mentality has made it impossible for people to follow some simple directions for the safety of everyone.  Why is that so hard?  And it's only for a few minutes at the most.

Are there some egomaniac cops (and departments) out there.  You betcha.    And I believe that they should drummed out of police work and if appropriate prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.   And sadly, that doesn't happen.

The rule of law is pretty much dead in this country, it's just too stupid to fall over.  A hard rain is gonna fall, but I can only hope that people realize what was lost and reclaim it again.

How does arguing that people shouldn't be shot for non-compliance mean the rule of law is dead?

The court example is a good point.  If the IRS or EPA goes after you, and you ignore them, they take you to court where you can argue the point and a judge or jury gets to decide what happens next.

The proper response to someone arguing a cop's direction on the roadside is most definitely not to bypass the legal option by shooting that person dead.

I also think policing should be based on realistic risk profiles.  The odds that a budding cop killer is the person you just pulled over are vanishingly small.  I don't agree that the citizenry deserve to be treated like  budding cop killers on the basis of that infintesimal risk.

[Balog]

Actually, no.  The police officer has very little to no background on you (other than wants and warrants, and perhaps priors.)   We were taught to treat every stop as a felony stop simply because we don't know what happened.   You could have just murdered your entire family, we don't know.  You may have decided that you want to commit suicide by cop, or that you've decided to kill as many cops (and/or other people) as possible.   Or you may simply be not paying a attention when you rolled through the stop sign, or late to pick up your kids from soccer practice which is why you weren't just pushing the speed limit but ignoring it.

This is a perfect example of fear porn nonsense that gets lots of innocent people killed.

Anyone I walk by on the street could be a deranged serial killer about to try to kill me. That doesn't mean I get to shoot someone just because they appear to be looking at me and reaching into their pocket.

[Hawkmoon]

Just remember -- there are two different (and basically mutually exclusive) mantras for police departments today. For the patrol cars, the mantra is "To Protect and Serve." For the officers, the mantra is "The only thing that matters is that I go home at the end of my shift."

[zxcvbob]

Just remember -- there are two different (and basically mutually exclusive) mantras for police departments today. For the patrol cars, the mantra is "To Protect and Serve." For the officers, the mantra is "The only thing that matters is that I go home at the end of my shift."

It doesn't say to protect and serve whom.

[Balog]

"Protect and serve" was (is?) the motto of the LAPD. It's never been anything more than a slogan one department adopted that made it into the national consciousness.

[Hawkmoon]

"Protect and serve" was (is?) the motto of the LAPD. It's never been anything more than a slogan one department adopted that made it into the national consciousness.

That slogan is painted (or decaled) on the sides of municipal police cars all across my state. If it has made it into the national consciousness, it's because the police themselves have put it there.

[Balog]

That slogan is painted (or decaled) on the sides of municipal police cars all across my state. If it has made it into the national consciousness, it's because the police themselves have put it there.

I'd guess it was because popular tv shows put it there, actually.

[KD5NRH]

We don't know.   And it takes very little time for things to go completely pear shaped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8oS1JuRxbQ

That took frickin' forever to go all the way south, in the terms of any sort of active encounter.
Dancing a jig was all the time in the world to draw and come on target.
Entering the truck was time to make sure the safety is off and get a finger on the trigger.
Weapon was visible for plenty of time to take the shot.

Essentially, this was the opposite extreme of the Levar Jones shooting.  It seems police have great difficulty finding a happy medium.

Early on, I saw one article suggesting that the shooting was unintentional -- as in a nervous trigger press due to stress. That would indicate poor trigger finger discipline -- violation of Cooper's Rule Number 3 (the full version: "Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target and you're ready to fire").

I can't find that reference now -- I suspect the department has done their best to make it go away.

Because you can't justify an accident.  Can't remember the name or place off the top of my head, but way back, there was a case where a guy was very justifiably aiming and ordering an attacker to stop while retreating.  He would have been fully justified in shooting under the circumstances, but he claimed the gun went off when he stumbled.  He ended up losing the case because he claimed it was an accident, not a completely justified use of deadly force in self defense.