Author Topic: Voted  (Read 14324 times)

AJ Dual

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Re: Voted
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2016, 04:20:57 PM »
Also, brand loyalty is a big obstacle.

That's a BIG part of politics. It's identity politics... for many many people it's not so much a matter of policy or ideology, but one of identity. Not that different to fealty to sports teams, or various subcultures identified by tastes in music or how one dresses.

And it also explains Trump from another viewpoint. Simply the GOP wasn't doing a heck of a lot for the people who identify with the GOP, or at least it seemed that way. And Trump either managed to tap into that identity and to a plurality of them represented it better, or perhaps he managed to create a similar, but new political identity people were willing to accept.
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Fitz

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Re: Voted
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2016, 04:46:24 PM »
I have to point out that it's generally not the weed that prevents many conservatives from voting libertarian. It is an "Oh and also" kind of issue, but the most important objections are either unfettered murder of the unborn and/or unfettered immigration (in the face of a massive welfare state).

There's a fairly large contingent of pro life libertarians.

And, your parenthetical is the salient point. Libertarians are not for open borders without attacking the welfare state as well.



Then again, the current GOP candidate has evolved a few times on abortion, and also has some very Hillary-like positions on entitlements, student loans, minimum wage...

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Voted
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2016, 05:01:57 PM »
Let's all keep in mind that biggest thing keeping people from voting third party is that American politics is a de facto two-party system.
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Fitz

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Re: Voted
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2016, 05:06:03 PM »
Let's all keep in mind that biggest thing keeping people from voting third party is that American politics is a de facto two-party system.

mostly because people continue to allow themselves to be betrayed every few years.

Looking forward to hearing about how libertarian voters forced trump to be awful and lose here in a month
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Voted
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2016, 05:16:24 PM »
mostly because people continue to allow themselves to be betrayed every few years.


Be that as it may, the point is that conservative reluctance to vote Libertarian has much more to do with pragmatics than policy.

It's all well and good to complain that people won't vote for a third party (not enough to turn that 3rd party into a main party). The question is, how do you accomplish that? It hasn't happened since the 1850s.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Voted
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2016, 05:57:26 PM »
mostly because people continue to allow themselves to be betrayed every few years.

Looking forward to hearing about how libertarian voters forced trump to be awful and lose here in a month

I think the Libertarians are going to pick up more disaffected Bernie supporters than Trump/GOP ones this year.

And the Investor Business Daily poll that has been right and the most accurate the past few election cycles has Trump slightly ahead, but only in the four-way matchup, but not the head-to-head matchup with Clinton.
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Scout26

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Re: Voted
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2016, 07:02:34 PM »
I think the Libertarians are going to pick up more disaffected Bernie supporters than Trump/GOP ones this year.

And the Investor Business Daily poll that has been right and the most accurate the past few election cycles has Trump slightly ahead, but only in the four-way matchup, but not the head-to-head matchup with Clinton.

Last I checked, it is a four-way matchup.  Are both the L's and G's on the ballot in (just about) every state?
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Re: Voted
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2016, 10:11:06 PM »
Last I checked, it is a four-way matchup.  Are both the L's and G's on the ballot in (just about) every state?

The Libertarians are on the ballot for all 50 states, plus DC. The Greens are only on the ballot in 44 states, according to Jill Stein's website:

http://www.jill2016.com/ballot_access
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AJ Dual

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Re: Voted
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2016, 10:17:13 PM »
Last I checked, it is a four-way matchup.  Are both the L's and G's on the ballot in (just about) every state?

As far as I know they are.

The two polls with and without the Libertarians and Greens though indicate who might be "stealing" from who.
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Re: Voted
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2016, 11:52:52 PM »

Be that as it may, the point is that conservative reluctance to vote Libertarian has much more to do with pragmatics than policy.

It's all well and good to complain that people won't vote for a third party (not enough to turn that 3rd party into a main party). The question is, how do you accomplish that? It hasn't happened since the 1850s.

a good start is having two completely unpalatable candidates.

so there's that
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wmenorr67

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Re: Voted
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2016, 08:31:04 AM »
Only three parties on the Oklahoma ballot, R's D's and L's.  Got my absentee ballot in the mail over the weekend.
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Re: Voted
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2016, 11:33:00 AM »
I voted for GWB twice. As a thought experiment lets say he is running against Hillary this time around, pretending it's allowed.

In good conscience I could not vote for him. Knowing what I know now I realize he is as detrimental to our nation as Hillary. Nothing more than a globalist who wants to see the progressive agenda instituted more slowly than the Democrat timetable. I would have to either note vote or cast a protest vote. Bush was a disaster in my view and my having voted for him makes me feel partially culpable for that disaster. I could not vote for him even with the specter of a Hillary presidency as the alternative.

For weeks now I've been trying to rationalize a vote for Trump but I'm not there...yet.  On paper Trump is just not qualified to be President and my fear is that with his shallowness of knowledge he could be led astray by wormtongue type advisers. On the other hand his instincts seem to be pretty good and he is surrounding himself with people that indicate he is serious about his main policy goals, goals I agree with.

Ultimately it is up to Trump to win over the fence sitters, not me.  

I am with you regarding Bush(es).  I don't want to see another one in political office.  I voted against Jeb's son (George P) as Tx Land Commissioner for that very reason. 

Lots of reasons to vote Trump.  HRC seems to provide more every day.  One big one to emerge after the conventions is HRC's and the globalists/cosmopolitans beating the war drums against Russia (and China).  We know from history that a Clinton is not above "wagging the dog" to distract the electorate. 

The best reason to vote Trump is that Trump will give Americans a bit more time before the collapse.  He can't prevent it as it it is too far advanced, but his stated policies also won't accelerate it the way HRC's will.

I would agree with you on GW.  The main point in favour of trump isn't what he says, it's who he answers to- his only constituency is voters, literally.  The rest of the centres of power HATE him

That latter bit is key.  The people with the greatest influence who have manipulated America and the global system to their advantage despise him.  This indicates Trump may indeed upset their rice bowls and the rest of us might catch a few grains before being tread into the mud by swine.

By poll-data it's a just about a statistical 3-way tie in Utah between Trump (30%), McMullin (I) (29%), and Clinton (28%). Results will be interesting. I'm not voting for Clinton, I'm not voting for Trump.

I'm not 100% compatible with McMullin's views either, but it's a lot closer match for me than Johnson. In the meantime, I'll continue to smile and nod when one person tells me my vote is really a vote for Clinton, while another tells me it's really a vote for Trump.

As for "It's the Supreme Court, stupid!", that's far from a sure thing. This sums up some of my concern on that matter:

I'll acknowledge that a Clinton presidency guarantees a liberal court, and a Trump one is at least moderately likely to be less liberal. But it's just not enough for nose-holding to be sufficient to give him my vote.

McMullin exists only to be a Trump spoiler.  Utah would have zero chance of going HRC without McMullin. 

Also, McMullin manages to embody the absolute worst *let's not go there* tendencies.

if you live in a state where it's not close, it's dumb NOT to vote for the libertarian candidate.

Hitting that magic threshold opens up automatic ballot access and FEC money.

That would cause them to have much greater resources to get support, and potentially shift the balance of power

The humor of upper-case-L Libertarians seeking the government cheese is evergreen.  You can't make this stuff up. 

I have to point out that it's generally not the weed that prevents many conservatives from voting libertarian. It is an "Oh and also" kind of issue, but the most important objections are either unfettered murder of the unborn and/or unfettered immigration (in the face of a massive welfare state).

Ayup, but don't forget the contempt.  Hard to ally with folk who are so blatantly contemptuous of one's sort.

That's a BIG part of politics. It's identity politics... for many many people it's not so much a matter of policy or ideology, but one of identity. Not that different to fealty to sports teams, or various subcultures identified by tastes in music or how one dresses.

And it also explains Trump from another viewpoint. Simply the GOP wasn't doing a heck of a lot for the people who identify with the GOP, or at least it seemed that way. And Trump either managed to tap into that identity and to a plurality of them represented it better, or perhaps he managed to create a similar, but new political identity people were willing to accept.

ALL Democrat Party politics is identity politics.  The only thing that holds the coalition of the fringes together (its KKKrazy Glue) is hate for whitey, the desire to milk whitey of resources, and grind whitey's face into the muck.  The GOP and most white folks have been fighting an identitarian struggle with weak ideological weapons.  Muh Constitution, the non-aggression principle, peaons to MLK & color-blindness, and  appeals to Russell Kirk are a surefire way to lose.

Trump simply does not explicitly despise white folks and want to seem them abased.  All else is of lesser importance.

There's a fairly large contingent of pro life libertarians.

And, your parenthetical is the salient point. Libertarians are not for open borders without attacking the welfare state as well.

Then again, the current GOP candidate has evolved a few times on abortion, and also has some very Hillary-like positions on entitlements, student loans, minimum wage...

The pro-life libertarians are as powerless in the L party as pro-life Democrats are in the Dem party.

Nope, the L party is perfectly suicidal regarding open borders.  They would let in folk by the millions who will never hold L values.  The L party ensures its other preferences will never come to pass.

Indeed, Trump has made gestures toward the GOP base, indicating he does not hold them in contempt.  He proposes some very un-GOP policies, but manages to keep his contempt for the socons under wraps (if he has contempt for them).  The L party not so much.
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Fitz

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Re: Voted
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2016, 11:57:11 AM »
FEC money is voluntarily given. The only people who find it humorous are the ones who are desperately trying to rationalize their choice of a big-gov liberal
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Re: Voted
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2016, 12:08:18 PM »
FEC money is voluntarily given. The only people who find it humorous are the ones who are desperately trying to rationalize their choice of a big-gov liberal

The L party is developing quite the talent for sucking on the gov't teat with one side of its mouth whilst simultaneously calling for fewer gov't teats with the other.

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Fitz

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Re: Voted
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2016, 12:16:23 PM »
The L party is developing quite the talent for sucking on the gov't teat with one side of its mouth whilst simultaneously calling for fewer gov't teats with the other.



Did you miss the voluntary part?

There's nothing incompatible with taking money that's voluntarily given

It's also a pretty goddamn funny criticism coming from a Republican and a Trump supporter

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roo_ster

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Re: Voted
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2016, 12:32:45 PM »
Did you miss the voluntary part?

There's nothing incompatible with taking money that's voluntarily given

It's also a pretty goddamn funny criticism coming from a Republican and a Trump supporter



Did you miss the government program part?  Or the part where the checkoff is voluntary, but the $3 is part of non-voluntary income taxes? 

The L party is seeking a cut of people's income taxes, plain and simple.  Savor that gov't teat.

About as freakishly humorous as piglets sucking on a cow's teat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-H1Ukbg7S8&feature=youtu.be&t=123

Next thing, we'll see the L party supporting the use of gov't violence to enforce marital arrangements and undermine freedom of association.  (Whoops, too late, the L BTDT already!)

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Fitz

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Re: Voted
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2016, 12:43:13 PM »
You're a warped dude

It's really no wonder your party is dying
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Voted
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2016, 12:48:38 PM »
You're a warped dude

It's really no wonder your party is dying


'Cuz the GOP would be fine, if it weren't for all those Trumpsters, right?
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Fitz

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Re: Voted
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2016, 12:52:29 PM »

'Cuz the GOP would be fine, if it weren't for all those Trumpsters, right?

 It's not just the trumpeters, but the people in the GOP who created The situation that created the Trump movement
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Scout26

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Re: Voted
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2016, 01:14:15 PM »
Did you miss the government program part?  Or the part where the checkoff is voluntary, but the $3 is part of non-voluntary income taxes? 




Ummmm, checking (or not) checking those boxes for you and the misses doesn't change your refund or amount you owe.
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roo_ster

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Re: Voted
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2016, 01:25:36 PM »

Ummmm, checking (or not) checking those boxes for you and the misses doesn't change your refund or amount you owe.

So?  Still taxpayer dollars taken under threat of violence that the L party is seeking to suck on.  Just another part of the hilarity that has been this election season.  Akin to the Green Party coming out "Nuke the Gay Whales for Jesus and Profit."

The L party degenerating into a retirement home for geriatric pothead gun-grabbing GOP policritters and a gov't-subsidy-seeking entity will, hopefully, put the nail in the coffin of L party utopian aspirations.
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Marnoot

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Re: Voted
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2016, 11:25:27 PM »
McMullin exists only to be a Trump spoiler.  Utah would have zero chance of going HRC without McMullin. 

Also, McMullin manages to embody the absolute worst *let's not go there* tendencies.

Every single person I know that is planning to vote for McMullin (and there are many) was never planning to vote for Trump or Hillary before McMullin put his name in the pot. They were going to leave it blank, write in Mickey Mouse, or make some other protest vote. Not one of them expects McMullin to win, it's a protest vote.

I'll vote for "the lesser of two evils" to a point. Though Hillary is worse, Trump's well past it. He manages to embody the absolute worst amoral identitarian tendencies.


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Re: Voted
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2016, 01:57:36 AM »
Every single person I know that is planning to vote for McMullin (and there are many) was never planning to vote for Trump or Hillary before McMullin put his name in the pot.


Don't eff with the narrative.

If you don't vote for the big NY liberal to defeat the other big NY liberal, you're destroying the country ersumshit

After all, it's not a candidate's job to EARN votes. It's our DUTY to support the candidate put in front of us by the Great Parties
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De Selby

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Re: Voted
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2016, 05:34:33 AM »
Every single person I know that is planning to vote for McMullin (and there are many) was never planning to vote for Trump or Hillary before McMullin put his name in the pot. They were going to leave it blank, write in Mickey Mouse, or make some other protest vote. Not one of them expects McMullin to win, it's a protest vote.

I'll vote for "the lesser of two evils" to a point. Though Hillary is worse, Trump's well past it. He manages to embody the absolute worst amoral identitarian tendencies.



On what planet is trump running an identity campaign?  He could not be more different and personally unable to fake it for his voters. 

It's his issues that got him votes, plain and simple.  Identity has cost him dearly because many people know his policies are better than the alternative, but just can't stand a loud NYC player getting ahead
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Re: Voted
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2016, 09:43:09 AM »
Supporting traditional American concepts of national identity, tradition and culture is racist.

If you are opposed to the demographic replacement of the traditional people of our country through unfettered immigration you are a racist.

Traditional European whites in the United States are not allowed to have a distinct American/European culture, that's racist.

If you don't support the polyglot amoral consumer culture you are a racist.

If you believe in national borders and choosing who emmigrates into the country you are a racist.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 10:46:30 AM by Ron »
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