Author Topic: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?  (Read 30799 times)

Matthew Carberry

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Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« on: December 14, 2006, 12:29:55 PM »
Quote from: wingnutx in "Dollar Coin" thread
Pennies are worth about 1.6 cents in zinc right now.

Via FARK.com (if you don't check there everyday, you should...)

http://money.cnn.com/2006/12/14/news/melting/index.htm?cnn=yes

Mint: Don't melt money
Government threatens prison for violators; at current prices the metal value of the coins may exceed their face values.
December 14 2006: 3:10 PM EST

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The U.S. Mint has implemented a rule against melting down pennies and nickels which, at current metal prices, could be worth more as metal than as currency.

The Mint has received numerous questions over the past several months regarding the metal value of the coins and the legality of melting them.

"We are taking this action because the nation needs its coinage for commerce," said Director Ed Moy in a statement.

"We don't want to see our pennies and nickels melted down so a few individuals can take advantage of the American taxpayer. Replacing these coins would be an enormous cost to taxpayers."

The new regulations authorize a fine of up to $10,, or imprisonment of up to five years, or both, against violators.

The rule also bans the exportation of the coins, beyond traveling with $5 worth and shipping up to $100 for legitimate purposes.
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wingnutx

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2006, 12:42:10 PM »

Via FARK.com (if you don't check there everyday, you should...)


Amen.

Antibubba

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2006, 07:35:35 PM »
Well, any shred of the illusion that our money is backed by value is now gone-since the only currency with any value cannot now be converted. angry
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Ron

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2006, 07:44:51 PM »
The whole economy is a ponzi scheme and has been since the Federal Reserve came into existence.

It will only work as long as people have confidence in it/us.

LAK

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 11:59:43 PM »
The dollar has been devalued to such an extent that coinage has been reduced to that of cheap metal tokens in order for it's face value not to exceed it's intrinsic material value.  The way the paper dollar is going, it will indeed not be worth the value of the paper it is printed on.

http://www.nowandfutures.com/changing_dollar.html

In 1905, a loaf of bread would have cost less than a nickel. Five cents. In many supermarkets now it is more like $2.50 to $3.00. For a factory item full of junk into the bargain.

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K Frame

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2006, 04:59:57 AM »
"For a factory item full of junk into the bargain."

You're welcome to the bread of 1905.

If you think it was pure, wholesome, and healthy, I've got a dog turd shaped like a bridge to sell you. I'll even give you a certificate that says it's the Brooklyn turd bridge...

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Art Eatman

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2006, 06:09:06 AM »
Okay, Mike, we'll take our magic time machine back to 1905 and upgrade the health quality.  That'll make it six cents a loaf. Cheesy

The number-cruncher boffins are saying that what a dollar bought in 1971 now cost ten dollars.  I don't argue, looking at housing and cars/trucks.  Or motels/restaurant food.  Or a cuppa kawfee, for that matter.

The history of all fiat monies is that of degradation of buying power.  I see nothing now that would change that pattern.  Right now, the scary part is that even though there is inflation in the EC, the dollar is going down vs. the Euro.  Just some three or so years back, the Euro was worth 84 cents.  It's bumping at the $1.33 per each level, right now.  IOW, we're worse off than the Europeans.

And so it goes...

Priced Confederate money lately? Cheesy

Art
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2006, 07:20:16 AM »
The dollar has been devalued to such an extent ...

Actually, it hasn't.  But those green peices of paper labeled "Federal Reserve Note" aren't dollars - in ANY sense of the word.  They aren;t even money.  If you look at the Constitution, in the Bill of Rights:

"Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law. "

and Article 1, Section 9

"The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person. "


Bear in mind, this is BEFORE the Constitution is ratified, yet the term "dollars" is used, meaning it had a commonly known definition BEFORE the United States Government, or any of its mints, existed.  Yet another clue...Article 1, section 8:
"To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures; "

So what were the colonies using for money BEFORE they were independant? NOT paper money, note the language  -  "coin money".  This is further reinforced in Article 1, Section 10:

"Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility. "

So the States themselves are prohibited from "coining money" and "issuing bills of credit" (a form of "paper" money?) - they can only use "gold and silver coin" - & they can't "inflate" the currency by reducing how much gold or silver is in an ounce, because that power is reserved to the Federal Congress.  Remeber, only foreign coins are available, right - so WHAT gold or silver coin is in use BEFORE the U.S. government, and is commonly known as a "dollar"?

From Wikipedia:

"Millions of Spanish dollars were minted over the course of several centuries. They were among the most widely circulating coins of the colonial period in the Americas, and were still in use in North America and in South-East Asia in the 19th century. They had a value of one dollar when circulating in the United States.

The coin is roughly equivalent to the silver thaler issued in Bohemia and elsewhere since 1517. The German name "thaler" (pronounced "tah-ler"  and "dahler" in Low German) became dollar in French and English.

The peso nominally weighed 550.209 Spanish grains, which is 423.900 troy/avoirdupois grains (0.883125 troy ounce or 27.468 grams), .93055 fine: so contained 0.821791 troy ounce (25.560 grams) fine silver. Its weight and purity varied significantly between mints and over the centuries.

The peso had a nominal value of eight reales ("royals"). The coins were often physically cut into eight "bits", or sometimes four quarters, to make smaller change. This is the origin of the colloquial name "pieces of eight" for the coin, and of "quarter" and "two bits" for twenty-five cents in the United States.

Prior to the American Revolution there was, due to English mercantilist policies, a chronic shortage of English currency in its colonies. Trade was often conducted using Spanish dollars. The pricing of equities on U.S. stock exchanges in 1/8 dollar denominations persisted until the New York Stock Exchange converted to pricing in sixteenths of a dollar on June 24, 1997, to be followed shortly after by decimal pricing."






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K Frame

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006, 07:28:03 AM »
I'm all for returning the American monetary system to a strictly specie based system.

Of course we wouldn't have much of an economy left after the first 6 months...

Not to mention 2 or 3 crushing panics or full-blown depressions every decade...
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 07:29:31 AM »
BTW, at todays prices, a real Spanish "real", just from its silver content, is worth about $11.82 in "dollars"...
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Eleven Mike

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 09:05:06 AM »
rich, you might be right on some of that stuff, I don't know.  But there is more than one kind of dollar out there.  It may be a fed reserve note or anything else, but that doesn't mean it's not a dollar.  The Canadian dollar is not a US dollar, and the US dollar is not a Bohemian thaler, or any historical predecesor.  There's also more than one currency called the real, I believe, and certainly there are a few pesos. 

cosine

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2006, 09:21:26 AM »
Of course we wouldn't have much of an economy left after the first 6 months...

Not to mention 2 or 3 crushing panics or full-blown depressions every decade...

This is a serious question... why?
Andy

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2006, 10:11:37 AM »
If the United States went to a specie model, we'd be the only nation in the world to do so. The world tried the specie model, and it was universally rejected during and after the Great Depression.

Why?

Because it's inflexible from an economic regulation stand point and it is VERY prone to outside manipulation.

For example, 1869. Jay Gould and James Fiske hatch a scheme to corner the gold market in an attempt to manipulate the United States economy in an effort to drive the value of their railroads by making it more profitable to ship western wheat to the East.

Upon learning of this scheme, President Grant authorized the release of treasury gold to stabilize prices and thwart Gould and Fiske. The result was the Black Friday panic of 1869.


Forward to the modern day.

The United States is the only nation on the gold standard.

China, now the world's largest producer of gold, decides that it's time to take over economically. Action? Release a few hundred million troy ounces of gold onto the market. Result?

Price of gold plummets, in effect devaluing US currency, and economic power, dramatically.

A few months later, Russia decides that its foreign debts to the United States are simply untenable. It releases gold on the market, driving the US currency value down, and repays its debts in the new, devalued currency.

Meanwhile, the prices of imported goods SKYROCKETS.

You think a barrel of oil is expensive now?

Care to imagine what would happen if the effective price of a barrel of oil doubled?

A day?

For 3 or 4 days straight?

A hard specie currency model works ONLY if your economic rivals are also on a specie model.

If they're not, you're *expletive deleted*ed.


The best way of looking at this, though, is the cumulative economic record prior to the Great Depression, and after the Great Depression.

Prior to the Great Depression, when the United States and the rest of the world was on the gold standard, there were 9 major recessions/panics/depressions, each lasting roughly an average of 5 years.

Since the move away from the gold standard, there have been several recessions, lasting on average 1 to 2 years, but no true panics, and no depressions.

Probably the closest we've come to a true depression since the move away from the gold standard is the late 1970s and early 1980s.

But, the ability of the economy to recover from those incidents is also greatly enhanced.

For example... 1987, Black Monday. The Dow Jones loses 25% of its value in a single day of trading. Other markets in other nations suffer similar, or greater drops.

Prior to the Great Depression, such an enormous loss usually signaled the beginning of a lengthy depression.

That wasn't the case.

The .dot bomb explosion of 2000-2001. A similar event, but again, not a widescale panic or depression.

One of the main reasons?

The economic flexibility afforded by a non-specie based currency.

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cosine

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2006, 10:17:08 AM »
Thanks for the reply. My knowledge of all things economic is pretty limited, so your answer makes lots of sense on why a hard specie currency model doesn't make a lot of sense.
Andy

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2006, 10:30:18 AM »
There are certainly those who would disagree with the scenarios I've posted above, but history is pretty convincing on this point as far as I'm concerned.

If you give up and go back to a specie based currency system, you by definition must give up many of the controls that allow economic stabilization during unsettled financial times.
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cordex

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2006, 11:06:18 AM »
Quote
The .dot bomb explosion of 2000-2001. A similar event, but again, not a widescale panic or depression.

One of the main reasons?

The economic flexibility afforded by a non-specie based currency.
Another of the main reasons is that the implosion of the dot-com bubble wasn't as widespread as it was made out to be.  Granted, there were a number of high-profile firms who subscribed to the Get Big Fast business model that lost a huge amount of value.  Overall, however, internet startups circa 1995-2000 didn't have a terribly high failure rate compared to other industry startups over the same time period.  Just this past Monday I spoke with Dr. William Aspray about a book he just finished editing about the early years of commercial internet and one of the authors in the book did a whole section on the dot-com boom and bust.  Very interesting stuff, and the first book of its kind due to the IEEE Annals' 15 year rule. 

The guy who wrote the dot-com boom section did a comparison of Internet startups with manufacturing startups over the same time period as well as comparing the short-term failure rates of the high tech industries of previous eras (automobiles at the turn of the century, televisions after WWII, etc.) and found that with one or two notable exceptions, internet startups as a whole performed comparatively well following its initial bubble.

richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2006, 11:20:17 AM »
If the United States went to a specie model, we'd be the only nation in the world to do so. The world tried the specie model, and it was universally rejected during and after the Great Depression.

Why?

Because it's inflexible from an economic regulation stand point and it is VERY prone to outside manipulation.

With all due repect - a FIAT currrency is just as prone to manipulation - even MORE so!  Having to redeem in "hard" precious metals acts a brake. NOW, they don't even need to tax in wealth in the form of gold to print more money - they just crank the presses and feed more paper in.  It's called "inflating the currency", and its why a REAL dollar has $11.82 "dollars" worth of silver in it - without hard backing, the currency has been inflated 12 times!!!  Not to mention the fact that the agency printing the money (Federal Reserve) isn't even part of the government!  How can that be, when the Constituion SPECIFICALLY states that

1.  Congress is to "coin" money,
2.  Only gold or silver coin is to be money,
3.  The Constituion can only be altered by AMMENDMENT - and niether of those provision have been changed by ammenment???



Quote
China, now the world's largest producer of gold, decides that it's time to take over economically. Action? Release a few hundred million troy ounces of gold onto the market. Result?


Not appreciably different than if they dumped US Treasury bonds and stopped buying them now,...or if the Arabs decide to quit holding petro dollars.  Yes, you list a real risk, but its one of many, and we face the same, or worse, now.

Quote
Prior to the Great Depression, when the United States and the rest of the world was on the gold standard, there were 9 major recessions/panics/depressions, each lasting roughly an average of 5 years.


And once the traitor FDR illegally took us, (and by "us" I mean the peons, er "citizens" - foreign countries and companies, and well as wealthy Americans, were in fact still on the gold standard...), confiscating privately held gold in the process, we had a Great Depression that lasted from 1929 until after WWII...

Quote
The .dot bomb explosion of 2000-2001. A similar event, but again, not a widescale panic or depression.  One of the main reasons?

The economic flexibility afforded by a non-specie based currency.

That "economic flexibility" is what CAUSED the bust.  An excess of "money" had been printed proir to Jan 2, because people were hoarding currency in the expectation that ATMs and banks would be hit with the "Y2K" bug.  An extra $50 or $100 incurrency per household has a huge impact.  That "extra" money largely found its way into the stock market, inflating prices.  When the Fed "over-corrected" for the extra liquidity, the flight of assets out of the market caused by the "tight money" policy added to the natural correction for over-priced stocks and caused the bust.
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richyoung

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2006, 11:22:07 AM »
If you give up and go back to a specie based currency system, you by definition must give up many of the controls that allow economic stabilization during unsettled financial times.


Those controls are a two-edged sword,...and whoever said it was the government's job to control the economy?
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cosine

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2006, 11:24:34 AM »
You guys gotta stop confusing me.  grin  How does any of this stuff ever makes sense, when both sides seem to be able to present reasonable arguments?  undecided
Andy

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2006, 01:09:41 PM »
Welcome to life.  Enjoy the confusion.   laugh
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cosine

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2006, 01:12:09 PM »
Welcome to life.  Enjoy the confusion.   laugh

Um, thanks, I guess.  Huh? cheesy
Andy

LAK

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2006, 01:19:51 PM »
Mike,
Quote
If you think it was pure, wholesome, and healthy, I've got a dog turd shaped like a bridge to sell you. I'll even give you a certificate that says it's the Brooklyn turd bridge...

Perhaps some people have a hard time discerning fecal matter from food. The junk-free bread I have had - be it from a bakery, or a family farm in Ireland where they still cut their crops by hand - it was fine.

In 1905, it would have depended on specifically who made the bread. In 1905, good bread could be had for less than a nickel; it is that simple in economic and quality of food terms. You can get good bread today - but look how much it costs. It has old-timey arty packaging and uses trendy marketing terms like "artisan" etc and costs twice as much as the junk for $2.50 a loaf. And most of the stuff turned out in colorful plastic bags today is junk regardless of who makes it. It is made with the junk added consistantly and catalogued on the label.
Quote
The world tried the specie model, and it was universally rejected during and after the Great Depression.
"The world"? That's a good one grin

This was not all some trial and error saga. Leaders and Governments of nations around the world have known what "money" is for centuries, even thousands of years. It only becomes a question of who controls it's value.

We do not have alot of gold in this country, but we have had more than enough silver for a stable currency. What do we "need" to import that we do not have or can produce ourselves? Chinese furniture? Opium? Sardines from Thailand? Shirts made in India?

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2006, 01:35:05 PM »
Quote
Leaders and Governments of nations around the world have known what "money" is for centuries, even thousands of years. It only becomes a question of who controls it's value.
When it comes to money, can you really compare modern Western economies with those thousands of years ago.  From what I am told, most people in former ages of history barely saw money, and certainly did not use it on a daily basis.  But I will have to do a cosine and say that I'm no economic genius. 
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drewtam

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2006, 05:29:03 PM »
When it comes to these beautiful arguments in economics, simplicity is not your friend.

Events like the great depression are more complicated than just fiat currency or gold confiscation or inflation by over printing.

Looking back at the interest rates you will see wild fluctations, going from 12% trending up through the twenties to -6% the next decade. So yes everyone is right, something screwy was going on with money supply.

But no has mentioned yet the fact that the stock market crash had little to do with a depression that didn't really set in til 2yrs later. 2yrs is a long time economically. No has mentioned the collapse of farms in the dust bowls. No has mentioned the protectionary tarrifs and trade barrier springing during the 30s, which plummited internation trade 80 - 90%. No mentioned yet how these dramatic economic landscape shifts in policy and money stuck some farms with over abundance so that prices dropped like a rock, yet the same farm mortgage was still due.

No one has mentioned the fact that major economies like Germany was trying to run with both legs tied together from the reparations that were demanded.
No has mentioned the bad loans banks were making.
No has mentioned that we are aghast of those times partly because it was that middling time between the absolute poverty of pre-industrial age and the absolute wealth of our current industrial age. (France, Spain, Germany have right now unemployments WORSE than what we had then.)

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2006, 06:24:56 PM »
The problem of people melting down coinage for it's bullion content has been an issue facing mints all throughout history.  This is nothing new, and has nothing to do with the Federal Reserve system or "fiat" money and all that blather. 

I've read stories about the British Royal Mint, back in the 1600's and 1700's struggling with this issue.  They found that when they set the face value of their gold coins at or very near the value of the bullion content of the coin, that blacksmiths and jewelers in need of additional metal would simply grab a few coins and melt them down instead of going out and buying raw gold on the market.  This forced the mint to manufacture new coins at an alarmingly high rate.  The expense of minting new coins was prohibitive.  The solution was to set the face value of the coins slightly below the bullion value of the gold that comprised the coins, thus making it uneconomical for the smiths to use the nation's currency as a source for currency. 

The advent of commodities markets complicated this problem.  Suddenly the price of metals was variable and constantly changing.  Setting the face value of a coin just above the market value of its metal content became impossible, because the price of the metals were always fluctuating.  The only way to solve this problem was to set the face value of the coin quite a bit below the anticipated market value of the metal.  People have been bitching about "fiat money" and the fact that their currency is worth less than it says it's worth ever since. 


As for the Federal Reserve system...
It's unrealistic to try to hold our currency to a predefined quantity of gold.  The economy is constantly growing, wealth is constantly being produced.  Every day when you go to work and do something useful, you are producing something economically valuable, something that someone else will trade value for.  You are literally creating new wealth.  Unless the total quantity of currency in the nation expands at the same rate as the expansion of wealth, the nation will experience wicked bouts of deflation.  There won't be any new currency available to supply the ever growing demand for paying for the newly created wealth.

Nations got away with the gold standard for a while because the amount of gold (and thus currency) in the economy was somewhat expandable.  New gold could be mined, discovered, stolen from native people, bought from foreign countries, or what have you.  Thus the currency base was able to expand with the expanding economy, at least for a while. 

But that system is unsustainable.  The activity of the economy was directly limited by the ability of the nation to lay hands on additional pounds of gold.  A free market economy can create wealth at a rate that far outpaces our ability to come up with new gold.  The Federal Reserve system is the solution we've come up with.  Like all social systems (or any human invention, for that matter), it has various flaws and weaknesses.  But it's still a good system, and better than the alternatives.  To paraphrase from Churchill, "The Federal Reserve note is the worst kind of money around, except for all the others."